V&V OOC/Signup Thread I

[The Celtic Viking]

That's the spirit! Come on, guys, chant it with me: We want blood!

We want blood!

We want blood!

We want blood!

[_Tristan_]

That's the spirit! Come on, guys, chant it with me: We want blood!

We want blood!

We want blood!

We want blood!

You might still get some if only by the tankard rather than the tun-load...

Btw, co-op story in under way and off to a good start

[phonicsmonkey]

Btw, co-op story in under way and off to a good start

Yes, stand by for a series of stories which will tell the epic tale of the Prinz and the Provencal.

[GeneralHankerchief]

As a quick note, Cecil requested this Emergency Session to address issues that have stemmed from recent events that I'm sure you can guess. Since I was going to call one anyway to be Kaiser-y and annoy you with my interpretations of the rules, this fit in well with my plans.

I've been avoiding V&V for a week-ish due to a particularly nasty set of finals, but those are for the most part behind me and I will return to my previous level of activity.

[Cecil XIX]

Sorry guys, finals grabbed ahold of me in a way I didn't expect. It's late where I am, and even though it's too late I'm going to post my proposed rule changes tomorrow so we can get a discussion going. Normal gameplay will resume soon.

[Cecil XIX]

All right, here are the rules I'd like to change/ add. Everyone, please let me know what you think.

1. Any time when two players are besieging a province with seperate armies, there is a clear hierarchy over who gets priority in assualting the settlement and claiming the spoils of war. First, the player with the high ranks gets higher priority, as follows: Kaiser, Prinz, Duke, Member of the Kaiser's Court, Count. If this is not sufficient, the tiebraker will be he whose army has the higher upkeep.

2. The last sentence of clause C in Rule 6.11 will be removed. In Rule 3.4, the following sentences will be removed:

The session after a province is conquered, the Diet will automatically vote on granting the conqueror, which is defined as the General leading the army which first entered the settlement, the province as a fief to be held by him and his successors in perpetuity. This vote requires a two-thirds majority to pass, and should it not pass than the province passes to the King who may grant it as a fief to any avatar as soon as he sees fit.

In it's place, the following will be added:

The conquering general initially assumes ownership. However, the Kaiser can either verify the general's claim or take the province for himself as his Imperial perogative.

3. Rule 7.3 will be replaced in it's entirety with the following:

Players who are at war no longer take the save as normal. Instead, those at war must PM the GM with their orders each turn, including recruitment, construction, movement etc. The GM will implement the orders simultaneously at the end of the turn, and PM the partcipants the results.

4. An elector cannot be forced to use his property for anything, except that money for recruitment, upkeep etc. must be deducted from the treasury. When the Diet passes such laws that force Electors to use thier money, soldiers, etc for some common purpose, violation of such laws is violating the Will of the Diet, not the rules of the game.

[TheLastDays]

Well, I think that the first to rules emphasize the OOC too much and make no sense IC...

For the first one I would still suggest, that the character that first arrives gets first priority to take the besieged settlement... We would need to work out a way to enforce "IC priorities" of course... but IC it just doesn't make sense, that someone could just "march" through an already besieging army and take a settlement himself...

TO number 2 I would suggest to add something like, that the character has to accept the Kaisers claims IC and if he doesnt it would automatically put him to war with the Kaiser (and the Reich), but IC it would certainly be possible... after all it's his army that's stationed in the town

3 and 4 seem fine to me...

[The Celtic Viking]

"I am the Kaiser, so step aside, for I shall take this province, you lousy little Count". Sounds okay to me IC; just having whoever besieges first takes it would just benefit the guy who was lucky enough to take the save before the other guy. If the first doesn't make sense IC, then that is just IC lunacy. Of course, there is the middle ground, where the ranking is only used if they besiege the settlement the same turn, but I don't know how you'd justify that IC.

Rule 2 I agree with you on, TLD, except for it being an automatic DoW. The Kaiser might be too weak to enforce that, or not willing to accept a new enemy in his situation or whatever.

3 & 4 also have my support.

Edit: I checked out the save, and I see that a unit of spear militia has been added to the recruitment roster in Prague. I suspect Nightbringer did this for the Reichmarschall position, as he had asked; the problem is that I never gave him permission to do this, so it's a breach of the rules. However, I had intended to disband one unit of town militia in Prague and raise a spear militia in their place, but I forgot to do this when I took the save. So, Cecil, could you before you continue the turn disband one town militia in Prague, and put the spear militia on my tab instead of the R.marsch.?

[TheLastDays]

Well you're right, so I'd say if someone lays siege and no one else lays siege during the same turn, we can assume that he has sieged first, even if someone sieges the next turn or later, so I would say in this case the one who was there first has first right, while the higher ranking character that comes and pays siege the next turn can still IC enforce his "right" to take the city, but of course the one who arrived first could disagree and they'd have to fight for it... or the higher ranking character lets it go away...

And to rule number 2, after thinkinga bout it, I agree, it shouldn't be automatic. When the Kaiser says "I'll take that." the character can either say "here you go" or "No way" and then the Kaiser can of course decide to enforce his claim if the subordinate refuses ;)

[Cecil XIX]

Sorry for the delay guys, but I've run into a problem with a CTD that's prevent the turn from moving forward. I've checked and it's not caused by a settlement revolting, and it seems if we go back to turn 32 it doesn't occur. The only thing I can think of is to ask around and see what would cause a Hotseat CTD in Lands to Conquer, but since there's no certainty of success I'm thinking it's best if we just revert to the end of Turn 32, and redo Turn 33. Are there any objections to that?

[phonicsmonkey]

as long as we just replicate what already happened I'm fine with it

[Nightbringer]

I'm fine with that

[Zim]

No problem here

[The Celtic Viking]

No, I'd rather not be able to play at all.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In case it's not clear... yes, I'm fine with it.

[phonicsmonkey]

The story of the Prinz and the Provencal is complete.

[Cecil XIX]

New save has been posted. In order to minimize confusion, let's not worry about people repeating their moves exactly and just have everyone act as they see fit. The exception is Lothar, where the militia has returned to Marseilles and begun construction of Wooden Walls.

Speaking of which, congrats to phonicsmonkey and _Tristan_ for for the coop story, it was very good!

[Zim]

It was a great story.

Before taking the save, wasn't there going to be an emergency Diet session, or did Zirn's "capture" mean it's no longer needed.

Also, I note again that I should be getting money from Innsbruck and hired some dismounted knights. Also, I think I should have gotten money from Zagreb last turn, at least if I understand things right (it's mine until and unless the Emperor stakes his claim).

[Cecil XIX]

There already was an emergency session.

At some point, the save reverting to a previous one where the CTD was present, and as a result the saves were invalidated. Rather than ask people to redo their moves for a third time, I decided to move the game along as is, doing what recruitment I could. Because Zagreb required a battle, it remains in Hungarian hands and as a result there was not the money to hire the dismounted knights.

Finally, the idea of requiring the Emperor to stake his claim was an idea I had, but it was not put into law and is not in effect.

[Zim]

Wasn't that the reasoning? for money from Genoa going to Zirn for those turns? It was even put into that OOC rule you proposed that we never got to vote on.

I've still been missing Income from Innsbruck for multiple turns, despite bringing it up from time to time.

Well, I guess soon it will be time for the Battle of Zagreb, Mark III... At least I wasn't attacked by that wandering Hungarian army nearby.

[Cecil XIX]

Wasn't that the reasoning? for money from Genoa going to Zirn for those turns? It was even put into that OOC rule you proposed that we never got to vote on.

I've still been missing Income from Innsbruck for multiple turns, despite bringing it up from time to time.

Well, I guess soon it will be time for the Battle of Zagreb, Mark III... At least I wasn't attacked by that wandering Hungarian army nearby.

The issue with Lothar and Genoa was simple ignorance on my part. I added to the OOC rule because I really did like the idea. I apologize for taking so long to remember to correctly add Innsbruck's income, but I prefer not to retroactively alter finances lest someone in the future the game is bogged down with attempts to nickel and dime things.

[phonicsmonkey]

Speaking of which, congrats to phonicsmonkey and _Tristan_ for for the coop story, it was very good!

Glad you guys liked it! I hope it was some compensation for us robbing you guys of your bloodsport.

I'm back from my vacation now and will take the save at some stage before the deadline.

[Zim]

Welcome back Phonics!

Story to follow recent events within a couple days.

[Visor]

When will a new avatar emerge? :(

[phonicsmonkey]

Pretty soon if Zim keeps killing them!

[TheFlax]

Seems that whoever I play in this game is destined to die during their first battle.

[The Celtic Viking]

It is the game punishing you for betraying me, I'm sure.

[phonicsmonkey]

It is the game punishing you for betraying me, I'm sure.

When did that happen?

[TheFlax]

When did that happen?

At the very start of the game, during the civil war event. I was with the rebels, but betrayed TCV and joined you lot. Then I died right after a few months of inactivity.

[phonicsmonkey]

I remember now. Hold a grudge much TCV?

[The Celtic Viking]

"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".