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Thread: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

  1. #1

    Default Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    Well now that etw and ntw have moved back to the stoneage in terms of how reinforcements are delivered to the battlefield i guess i have to campaign again for the inclusion of reinforcements that are controlled at the players behest by the ai allowing for more than a 1v1 situation in the single and multiplayer campaign. For what reason this was removed after Mtw2 ill never know, talk about a step backwards. Now we have reinforcements dribbling onto the field as you lose a unit its terrible!

    With Ca promising the best AI yet its an ideal time to add this feature back into shogun2.
    Last edited by Swoosh So; 08-24-2010 at 12:25.


    "The mind is everything. What you think you become."

    "The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed."

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  2. #2
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    I agree completely that reinforcements should be controlled by the player.Player should atleast be able to actually manage them+ He should know from where they are entering the field and in which order.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    You can pick the order they come on but the problem is that etw and ntw only allow 20 units on screen at any one time, whereas in mtw2 you could allocate an army to the ai and instruct it to defend attack etc therefor allowing mp battles with you and the ai vs the ai. Upto 80 units a side if it was included in the current game.

    The current system works like this - one of your unit dies - 1 unit dribbles onto the battlefield. Maximum of 20 units per side at any time in any battle. 1v1 max
    The old system worked like this - All units involved in the battle could be fielded at the same time and you could allocate your allied armies to ai to assist you, or you could choose to dribble. Essentially creating interesting 2v2-4v4 battles in the single player campaign instead of just 1v1.

    The current system in ai terms means you can hold off 4 armies with 1 by sitting on a hill and not moving by just killing the units as they dribble onto the battlefield, whereas in the old system you would be faced by a force 4 times your size and really be up against it.
    I cant put into words how backwards this is for the series, really dissapointed by it.
    Last edited by Swoosh So; 08-24-2010 at 12:59.


    "The mind is everything. What you think you become."

    "The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed."

    Buddha

  4. #4
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    I remember in Medieval 2 how hard it is to isolate a single Mongol army because they tend to travel around in groups. My problem is with my PCís performance. Itís a decent machine but with several armies present on the field I have a slide show. Dealing with multiple veteran Mongol armies would be a fun challenge if my machine could handle it.

    Perhaps this is why CA backed away from AI control of so many additional troops. It worked great with smaller formations but full stacks choke things up.
    Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    You had the option to use either system so wouldent matter your machine stats


    "The mind is everything. What you think you become."

    "The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed."

    Buddha

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    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Swoosh So View Post
    You had the option to use either system so wouldent matter your machine stats
    You have a choice about how your own reinforcements arrive true enough. But IIRC the AI can bring in any troops it has nearby all at once. 40 units, 60, whatever. I donít recall this being an option.

    It has been a while since I played it though...
    Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    its 20 v 20 atm maximum in ntw


    "The mind is everything. What you think you become."

    "The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed."

    Buddha

  8. #8

    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    I agree with the OP. The system in NTW and ETW is unrealistic and takes the strategy out of having to fight superior numbers. I think the best solution would be to allow the game to have any number of units on the battlefield, but to have them possibly with delayed army arrivals, so if you are expecting support from another army you don't know when it will arrive and so it will keep you on edge till it does arrive.

  9. #9
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    However itís done, CA needs to make certain that so many units donít get on the field that frame rates drop through the floor. This issue is more than just ďHow do we players get our reinforcements?Ē It also concerns the AIís reinforcements. As I said earlier, in Medieval 2 you could get inundated with so many enemy AI armies that the game became unplayable. Not a good thing. CAís solution in NTW is 20 units on 20 max, period. Not an optimal solution perhaps but a solution nonetheless.

    I think we all want as many troops available as our machines can handle and some of us expect reinforcements when and where we choose. In STW2 CA has to grapple with how that might be accomplished for both the player and the AI while keeping the frame rate high because some times the strategy map can deliver more armies to a battle than even a great pc can handle properly. Thatís a tough job I think.
    Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    The easiest way to do it is to let the player decide, do i want all armies to be present or just 1 with dribbles. Some players may have issues with their machine but theres a great number of us also that dont. Most people online can easily join and play in a 3v3 with medium armies infact the most common army size online in large that you see hosted in the foyer. Like i say the easiest way is to give the player the option just like they have the option to change the unit sizes.


    "The mind is everything. What you think you become."

    "The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed."

    Buddha

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    Member Member hoom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    I had never really played M2 & the control of AI reinforcements was broken in the previous version of Third Age mod but its functioning in Third Age 2.1 & seems to work pretty well :)

    I hadn't realised its missing from Empire/Napoleon though
    maybe those guys should be doing something more useful...

  12. #12
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    I wonder if CPU demand can be very different between SP and MP and if this might not influence frame rates.

    In an SP campaign the AI must control every enemy unit. Imagine facing 4 Hojo full stacks with huge units! Thatís 80 units the CPU must continuously make decisions for. Very demanding.

    In an MP fight where a person controls every unit, the AI is taking far fewer CPU cycles to decide what to do. It must still control each soldier but the AI is relieved of ďbig pictureĒ logic. So might it not be easier for TW games to deal with large MP battles than with SP battles, connection issues aside?

    In any event, yes, options for how reinforcements are handled in both MP and SP will be welcome. Options, options. You canít have too many IMO.
    Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    Exactly options options you set the default options for the lower end specs but have the option for people with higher end pcs to have multiple armies in there.


    "The mind is everything. What you think you become."

    "The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed."

    Buddha

  14. #14
    BLEEEE! Senior Member Daveybaby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    I'd really like to see 3 options:

    (1) Additional armies trickle onto the field as reinforcements (in the same old way)
    (2) AI takes control of additional armies (as in M2TW)
    (3) Player takes control of all armies

    I mean, how difficult would it be to have a key that cycles through each of your armies on the field? Was really hoping they would give us this in ETW - the scale of the game wouldve suited it much more than, say, shogun2 - but instead they went in the opposite direction. :(
    Last edited by Daveybaby; 08-26-2010 at 14:44.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Reinforcements - Guess i have to make this thread (shouldent have to!)

    I think the game being changed to animations and the increased graphics, probably led CA to make the current limit to 20 units max at one time. Your PC can only handle so much and the incredible graphics and animations come at a cost to cycle times. I too liked the old method of reinforcing your army.

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