polybian reforms

[athanaric]

See this thread.

Are Polybian units worse than Camillan?

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: It's a myth arisen from the fact that certain Camillan units are better at certain specific tasks than their later counterparts. Triarii and Equites Romani are slightly worse overall after the reforms. Leves and Rorarii (IIRC) disappear. So much for the worse part.
However, your other units gain increased AoR. Hastati and Principes gain additional armour and become better at assault tasks. With Velites, you get skirmishers that are more reliable than Leves, better armoured and also cooler looking.

Your army as a whole loses some anti-cavalry potential but gains significantly more anti-infantry power. Armour increases on average (Skirmishers, Hastati, Principes), despite Triarii and Equites Romani losing one or two points.

--

The one exception, I think, is in their skirmishers - I find Camillan skirmishers very useful. By the Polybian Era they're just dead weight.

Um, Velites are quite good. Better than Leves in any case.

[Rahl]

Um, Velites are quite good. Better than Leves in any case.

200 instead of 240 soldiers per unit, but only the same range attack and amount of throwing spears for more money. Okay, they have 3 or 4 armour points more and wield a small shortsword, but I use light skirmishers nearly never in melee especially when you have so strong infantry. You can debate if they are worse than Leves, but better in any case is just not true.

[athanaric]

200 instead of 240 soldiers per unit, but only the same range attack and amount of throwing spears for more money. Okay, they have 3 or 4 armour points more and wield a small shortsword, but I use light skirmishers nearly never in melee especially when you have so strong infantry. You can debate if they are worse than Leves, but better in any case is just not true.

Did you check morale and discipline?

Edit: I thought so. Velites have higher skill, mass, morale (by 3 points, no less), and discipline. Their secondary weapon is technically worse but against infantry still at least as good as the Leves' spear.
Check for yourself:
Velites
Leves

Leves are only better against non-ranged cavalry. Or if you just want to pump out as many javelins as possible.

[Ca Putt]

overall you get drawn to fight more roman - with diciplined heavy sword wielding infantry of the line. your (roman) elites get less feasible - Triari and Equites. your levies get less numberous thus you have to rely on regional levies. It (coincidently)sorta prepares you to fight with marian troops - diciplined heavy sword wielding infantry of the line.
whereas the biggest adantage is the aforementioned AOR increacement.

[Mulceber]

Did you check morale and discipline?

Morale and discipline only become really useful once they get into melee, at which point they've already failed to fulfill their purpose. The point of skirmishers is to wear down the enemy WITHOUT engaging them in melee. Leves do that quite well, I find. Velites do not. We can argue numbers until we're blue in the face, but none of that matters in the face of what they actually do on the field. In my experience, Leves harass and wear down the enemy before retiring behind my lines. Velites do precious little damage and are unable to avoid being charged, at which point they fight ineffectively for a few minutes and then rout. -M

[athanaric]

Morale and discipline only become really useful once they get into melee, at which point they've already failed to fulfill their purpose.

I actually prefer skirmishers that don't rout on impact if they are accidentally caught in melee.

The point of skirmishers is to wear down the enemy WITHOUT engaging them in melee.

It's also quite handy if they can take a minimum of enemy fire (those elephants usually have archers on top...). Or if you can use them as auxiliary flankers. Velites are better at both.

Leves do that quite well, I find. Velites do not. We can argue numbers until we're blue in the face, but none of that matters in the face of what they actually do on the field. In my experience, Leves harass and wear down the enemy before retiring behind my lines. Velites do precious little damage and are unable to avoid being charged, at which point they fight ineffectively for a few minutes and then rout. -M

Leves have a few more men, but the ranged stats and stamina are the same. The difference cannot be that great. Especially seeing as I've used both with good success.


Anyway, the point is moot, since they fulfil subtly different roles - the Leves being "cheap skirmishers", i.e. a better version of Akontistai, whereas the Velites are more into the "good skirmisher" niche, being a slightly weaker version of Komatai. This means the Leves are better at range or defensive tasks, whereas Velites are better at "search and destroy", i.e. ambush, killing elephants, and scattering routers.

[Blxz]

The only real downside to the reforms in the few turns where you are unable to replace units until the new barracks are built as well as the inability to retrain your main army anymore.
The first point is only really a major issue when the marian reforms come about though. Its a good few turns before you can build anything other than those dodgy guard units. Unless you have the foresight to already rely on regional units extensively.