Imperial Diet & Rules

[Nightbringer]

I too second CA 4.1b

[Zim]

It doesn't need it, but I also second CA4.1b.

[Zim]

As the Diet seems to be slowly coming to a close I would like to bring up a few subjects.

First, I nominate myself for the position of Spymaster.

Next, there is an upcoming problem we haven't spoken of here this session. Although the Reich seems to be in much better condition than when my family was driven from their lands in Essen during the Time of Troubles there is still an encroaching danger beyond the usual cadre of enemies we've come to know and loath.

I speak in regard to the mad ravings of that Turk that came in here some time ago. While I am not sure one such as he could truly be representative of a nation, these are heathens we are talking about so we can rule nothing out. The Turks rule vast territories and grow ever closer to our border. In power they are greater than our current enemies combined. I have no doubt German steel can stop them but it may be best to be prepared in case they are belligerent as they seem. Even the Reich is vulnerable when caught unprepared, as some events of the past couple decades have taught us.

[phonicsmonkey]

The Prinz.

Von Essen I admire your foresight but what would you have us do beyond what we currently strive to achieve?

Osterreich will be the Duchy which will face the first assault if these heathens choose to attack us and we move to strengthen our hand by consolidating our hold on the region. By eliminating the Milanese and conquering the western Hungarian provinces we should gain a position of power which will give us the means to resist them.

What more should we do to prepare?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Before this Diet session draws to a close, there is one other issue to discuss, and it is more of an administrative thing than anything else. As you all know, Lothar Zirn, while not being in a state of war with the Reich, is being uncooperative and therefore does not have a presence in this Diet. Now, I believe he is currently styling himself Count of Genoa, however, this is unfortunately not the case. I hereby invoke Charter Provision 6.11, specifically Clause 3:

The city of Frankfurt and its outlying province will become part of the newly-created Imperial Dominion. All newly-conquered cities become part of the Imperial Dominion until/unless the Kaiser grants them to a Duchy, as per Charter provision 6.6.

At this time I would like to announce that Genoa shall remain in the Imperial Dominion for the time being. God save the Reich.

[phonicsmonkey]

The Prinz.

Hear Hear! The rebel Zirn should not enrich himself at the expense of the Reich if he is not prepared to swear allegiance.

However, mein Kaiser, your statement seems to highlight a contradiction at the heart of our Charter, wherein your quoted 6.11 seems to contradict clause 3.4 which states:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

3.4 The acquisition and allocation of new settlements is determined by a multi-step process involving the Kaiser and the Diet. First, a settlement cannot legally be captured unless an edict was passed in the previous session authorizing it’s conquest. An edict can only authorize taking one settlement, each settlement requires it’s own edict. The session after a province is conquered, the Diet will automatically vote on granting the conqueror, which is defined as the General leading the army which first entered the settlement, the province as a fief to be held by him and his successors in perpetuity. This vote requires a two-thirds majority to pass, and should it not pass than the province passes to the King who may grant it as a fief to any avatar as soon as he sees fit. A noble who holds one or provinces in violation of this rule should be considered an outlaw, and have his property seized.

How are we to reconcile this? Is 3.4 to be considered repealed or should we continue to vote on the allocation of captured settlements in the way I had proposed to do with Innsbruck? I have no doubt in this case that the assembled Electors would vote to deny Genoa to the rebel, but it strikes me that in the future we may need to clarify this process.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

As Charter Provision 6.11 was originally proposed as an Amendment and came after the original Charter was signed into existence, it is my interpretation that the contents of 6.11 override the highlighted part of 3.4 and thus the Diet vote to determine settlement ownership is no longer valid. Instead, the happy task of determining provincial ownership is mine and mine alone.

However, you do bring up a valid issue in that the Charter is somewhat out-of-date and may need rewriting/clarifying in order to properly account for its changes. I will set my scribes to it soon enough.

(OOC: I'll take a look at it this weekend, have to write a paper right now.)

[Zim]

Mein Prinz,

I was thinking of anything at all rather than not discussing them and acting as if they are not an upcoming threat, as seems to have been our strategy up to this point.

By what seems happy chance our current plans will indeed help us prepare to deal with the Turks, but then so would any that involved eliminating some of our many enemies and consolidating our territory.

As an example, I think we should discuss possibly trying to improve our castles so that we may arm peasant fodder with crossbows,a potent weapon when dealing with the Muslims, who favor mounted archers. This requires no edict, just something for current owners of the Reich's castles to keep in mind.

We could also see about sending some kind of envoy to the Turkish court, in order to ascertain their intentions.

[Zim]

Hmmm...I always took it as the Kaiser granting the settlements unless a Diet vote hands them off to someone, although I see the argument for 6.11 superceding 3.4.

Either way I think the Zirn issue should be settled. Either he should be brought back into the fold of the Reich or eliminated. This half life of his cannot continue and makes the Reich look weak to other nations.

[phonicsmonkey]

Crossbows should be within our capabilities, although I confess myself unwilling to invest too much in the facilities at Innsbruck if it is not to be my permanent posession.

Perhaps as Spymaster you could take it upon yourself to ascertain the state of facilities at Ragusa, while keeping a close eye on Turkish troop movements in the east?

As to Zirn, to my mind he exists in his limbo only because we have been beset with other more pressing issues. I agree that the matter should be seyttled forthwith...one way or another..

[Zim]

I plan on sending a spy to Ragusa right away if I get the position. As per the Turks, I would keep an eye on them for troop movements, although a diplomatic envoy still seems advisable. Spies cannot ascertain their intentions or the mood in their capital, only tell us where their armies are. Valuable information, but nonetheless information that can do with some supplementing.

[The Celtic Viking]

Theodericus der Bartige finally puts down his pen and stands up. With another wave of his fingers, Friedrich von Eisel speaks.

"The Magnificent Margrave of Magdeburg wishes to speak."

He bows to Theodericus, and then sits down. Theodericus lifts his right hand in salute, and then turns to the Prinz and...

"... who are you? I fail to put a name to your face, you who think that nominating yourself for Spymaster is the same as acquiring that position. It is not, as I shall teach you, so you shouldn't be so arrogant as to presume such a thing. Lets make a sport out of it, shall we? I nominate myself for the position of Spymaster.

Moving on, I would like to propose the following:

Charter Amendment 4.1c

Should Charter Amendment 4.1b pass, the following should be added to the Marshall position:
Penalties:
(3) The Marshall's army has 2 priorities, in order of importance:

a) To defend the Reich's current possessions

b) To reclaim lost settlements

The Marshall's army cannot be used to conquer new settlements

(4) The Marshall shall while holding this position lose all his ties to his Duchy and answer only to the Kaiser and the Diet

I believe that this is a fair amendment to make sure that the Marshall's army is indeed used as advertised, and not abused to serve any one specific Duchy's interests.

I also have two House Edicts to make. As I am the only representative here from Brandenburg-Bohemia who is eligible to vote, they require no seconders.

House Edict 4.4: The Diet authorizes Margrave Theodericus der Bartige to capture Stettin.

House Edict 4.5: The Diet authorizes Margrave Theodericus der Bartige to capture Breslau.

[phonicsmonkey]

The Prinz grins at the Margrave's irascible nature.

Good Margrave, it is a pleasure to see you in such fine spirits.

I may be able to support your amendment but I'm not sure exactly what it means. What, in practice, will the following mean for the Marshall?

(4)The Marshall shall while holding this position lose all his ties to his Duchy and answer only to the Kaiser and the Diet.

It is a worthy sentiment but vaguely drafted at present - it could be given a wide range of interpretations. Pray be more specific and I might consider seconding it.

I should also point out that I will not support this measure unless point 3 is redrafted thus:

The Marshall's army cannot be used to conquer new settlements unless expressly authorised to do so by the Diet.

This will allow us flexibility should we collectively decide to use the Reichsmarschall's force as part of an offensive against an enemy which threatens the Reich and must be eradicated.

I agree with the sentiment which I perceive to be behind it, which is that the centrally funded army should not be used to further the territorial ambitions of individuals.

[The Celtic Viking]

"Very well, I shall explain. Since the Reichmarshall's army would be paid for by all electors and is there for the defence of the Reich as a whole, he cannot be partial and must act in an objective manner. If he is a client of a Duke or a Margrave, then that conflicts with this responsibility, and allows for the Duke or Margrave in question to exert undue influence over him. So in order to avoid this, the man who is elected as Reichmarschall will, for the duration of his term as such, will not be a part of any Duchy. He would thus, while serving as Reichmarschall, stop being a client of his Duke, and instead be bound only to the Kaiser and the Diet.

This means that, while he is Reichmarschall, he is not a member of any Duchy and cannot recieve income from any land that is part of one. Whether this means that he keeps the land which is then removed from the Duchy, or if he forfeits that land altogether, matters little to me, though I think the former is better, as we can then add that income to the Reichmarshall's army. When his term is over, he returns to his Duchy together with any land that he might have taken with him.

Allow me then to rephrase my proposal:

Charter Amendment 4.1c

Should Charter Amendment 4.1b pass, the following should be added to the Reichmarshall position:

Penalties:
(3) The Reichmarshall's army has two priorities, in order of importance:

a) To defend the Reich's current possessions
b) To reclaim lost settlements

As such, the Reichmarshall's army cannot be used to conquer new territory

(4) For the duration of his term, the Reichmarschall will secede together with any land he owns from his Duchy and answer only to the Kaiser and the Diet.

Does that clear things up for you?"

[phonicsmonkey]

It does but I then cannot support it - for it would effectively disbar any Duke from serving as Reichsmarschall, restricting the position to lesser nobles. What if we have but Dukes as Electors? Then we shall have no Reichsmarschall.

Also, what is to become of the Reichsmarschall's personal lands if he is not able to spend money to improve them during his term? The Reich is then paralyzed in some part and cannot be developed.

Further, if the Reichsmarschall has no independent income then there is no further resource for him to fall back upon if the central budget is exhausted.

So I'm afraid I must oppose the measure unless this item is removed.

It's a pity, for I am in favour of the rest (with the minor amendment I proposed to (3)).

[The Celtic Viking]

"If we have only Dukes then we will either have too many Dukes, or we will be in such a dire situation that we have worse things to think about. Besides, if the Duke becomes Reichmarschall, and he stays being Duke, then we have an even worse conflict of interest. In any case, there is nothing legally barring Dukes from becoming Reichmarschall; he would keep his settlements while being the Reichmarschall, and he will have his Duchy reinstated afterwards. For him, this would merely be a formal change, which is why I would prefer if the Reichmarschall was elected from non-Dukes. However, I have amended my proposal to better guarantee this.

As for his personal income and such, I did not mean to say that it would have to be used for his army. I said he could, and by that meant it to be exactly what you call for: an independent income to draw from if need be. It was in contrast to the option where he surrenders his land, which I did not propose. Those objections thus carry no weight. So, let me make a third draft:

Charter Amendment 4.1c

Should Charter Amendment 4.1b pass, the following should be added to the Reichmarshall position:

Penalties:
(3) The Reichmarshall's army has two priorities, in order of importance:

a) To defend the Reich's current possessions
b) To reclaim lost settlements

As such, the Reichmarshall's army cannot be used to conquer new territory, unless expressively authorized to do so by the Diet. This, however, cannot surpass priority a) or b).

(4) For the duration of his term, the Reichmarschall will secede together with any land he owns from his Duchy and answer only to the Kaiser and the Diet. Immediately after his term is over, his status (and Duchy, if the Reichmarschall was a Duke) will be brought back to what it was before.

Does this change your opinion on the matter?"

[phonicsmonkey]

I'm afraid my first objection still stands. The Reichsmarschallship is a temporary position which should be open to all Electors, Dukes and Margraves included. Indeed it is desirable that someone of the landed gentry take the position as they have access to resources to supplement the Marshall's budget.

Even in the situation of a Count (which is the only situation to which your rule would apply if Dukes be disbarred) I fail to see what practical difference it makes.

A Count already has his own income which is independent from the Duchy. I have no claim, for example, on the income of Budapest save what I choose to extract in tax. Count Herden is free to spend his money as he wishes.

What would your measure change of that situation, except that in name he would no longer be part of Osterreich?

[The Celtic Viking]

"It has always been open for Dukes to join in, and still is. They will simply give up their title as Duke while being Reichsmarschall, keep their land, and then when the term is over automatically have their Duchy reinstated.

Charter Amendment 4.1c

Should Charter Amendment 4.1b pass, the following should be added to the Reichmarshall position:

Penalties:
(3) The Reichmarshall's army has two priorities, in order of importance:

a) To defend the Reich's current possessions
b) To reclaim lost settlements

As such, the Reichmarshall's army cannot be used to conquer new territory, unless expressively authorized to do so by the Diet. This, however, cannot surpass priority a) or b).

(4) For the duration of his term, the Reichmarschall will secede together with any land he owns from his Duchy and answer only to the Kaiser and the Diet. Immediately after his term is over, his status (and Duchy, if the Reichmarschall was a Duke) will be brought back to what it was before.

This would mean that the Reichmarschall is not personally bound as a client to any Duke. If count Herden is elected, for example, you would for the duration of his term be in no greater legal authority over him than I would. He would not be your client for the while. You cannot fail to see the point in this."

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: Sorry, I have a habit of being too quick to press the post reply button (as I did even here). I hoped I could edit my post before you read it, but I failed.

[phonicsmonkey]

The Prinz has lost his patience.

I can clearly and certainly see the point in it, which is a rather transparent attempt to hobble Count Herden. It is a shame that you seem unable to leave your past grievances to one side and choose instead to continue this petty feud, wasting the Diet's time while you do so.

To answer the point at hand I fail to see it will make any practical difference if the Marshall is removed from his House for the duration of the term - for if he is aware that he shall rejoin that House at the end of the term then he is as bound to it and its long term interests as he was before he took up the position.

Your proposal is ill conceived and I shall not second it, nor will I vote in favour of it, should it find a pair of seconders, unless you remove point (4) altogether.

[The Celtic Viking]

Theodericus sighs.

"You are the one who keep hobbling on about Jens Herden. Let me state this categorically: I. Do. Not. Care. About. It! As far as I'm concerned, the quabble between us is settled. I am fine with him becoming Reichmarschall. If I was not, I would have challenged him for that position, and not gone for being Spymaster instead. My proposal has absolutely nothing to do with him.

I am flabbergasted that you keep on missing the point, or pretending that you miss the point, regarding the client-patron relationship. The point is that the Reichmarschall is supposed to be impartial, and any conflict of interest must thus be eliminated as far as possible. Since we can't remove all this to a perfect degree, we must settle with removing as much of it as we can, and that includes removing him from the client-patron system, at the least for the time being. I personally thought that it would be going too far to permanently remove him from his Duchy, but if you would prefer that, why not propose it?

From what you have said, with your pitiful excuses to reject my proposal, it would seem to me like your only intent in creating this Reichmarschall army was to give yourself a new army, without having to pay for it out of your own pocket. You don't want it to be run in an impartial manner, you want it to be run in your favour!"

[Zim]

Elberhard raises an eyebrow at the Margrave's antics.

Me? I am just a servant of the Empire. With the diet starting to come to a close I decided that I would step in where it seemed noone else would. As a mere noble of the Reich I imagine I have no chance against one so "illustrious" as the Margrave, but if nothing else my candidacy can serve as a testament to the prestige of the Margrave with his inevitable win.

Theodericus der Bartige finally puts down his pen and stands up. With another wave of his fingers, Friedrich von Eisel speaks.

"The Magnificent Margrave of Magdeburg wishes to speak."

He bows to Theodericus, and then sits down. Theodericus lifts his right hand in salute, and then turns to the Prinz and...

"... who are you? I fail to put a name to your face, you who think that nominating yourself for Spymaster is the same as acquiring that position. It is not, as I shall teach you, so you shouldn't be so arrogant as to presume such a thing. Lets make a sport out of it, shall we? I nominate myself for the position of Spymaster.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

I second CA 4.1c, and House Edicts 4.4 and 4.5.

[Nightbringer]

I too will second edicts 4.4 and 4.5, but unless article 3 of charter 4.1c is modified, I cannot support it. I believe it is of great importance that the marshal can be deployed by the diet to capture settlements if needed. Without this ability, the position is crippled and will be of no help in a general offensive. Also, as I'm sure you know, a good offense is often the best defense.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

If Article 3 is modified, I shall withdraw my support. The entire point of the Prinz's and Margrave's reformation efforts is so the Marshal will head an army that is purely for defensive purposes. Call me crazy, but I have a hunch that unless its purpose is mandated by the Charter, a defensive army will eventually make the transition to the offensive.

[Nightbringer]

That is why any offensive action must be at the direction of the diet, as passed by a majority vote. The provision simply ensures that if needed the marshal's army can be sued for offensive purposes, it does not mean the marshal may simply attack when he desires.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Herden, I know how this works. If there is a resource to be used, then people will use it. Unless we make it a part of the Charter that the Reichsmarschall's army is explicitly to be used as a defensive force unless otherwise authorized beforehand by the Diet, it will over time simply become another offensive army, leaving the interior once again unsecured.

[phonicsmonkey]

The Prinz once more.

I believe the Kaiser and the Count are of one mind and would support the legislation were point (3) worded thus:

(3) The Reichmarshall's army has two priorities, in order of importance:

a) To defend the Reich's current possessions
b) To reclaim lost settlements

As such, the Reichmarshall's army cannot be used to conquer new territory, unless expressively authorized to do so by the Diet. This, however, cannot surpass priority a) or b).

However, I should like to hear the Kaiser's perspective on the proposed point (4). Does he believe it is in the interests of the Reich to sever the ties of loyalty between vassals and their lords?

[Nightbringer]

Err, that is what I was saying...
(OOC: and... I just realized I was looking at the first version of it and the quoted ones in fact contained revisions, so basically never mind on everything I have just said.)

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

As for Point 4, I am more in favor of the arrangement being more of a gentlemen's agreement than anything else, as we are all honorable men of the Reich, but I suppose I could perhaps see how in the future when notions of chivalry and honor diminish that the legislation would be necessary. Therefore, my opinion on Point 4 is that I do not believe we need it now, but we may at some indeterminate point in in the future. Therefore, I believe it should stay in.

[phonicsmonkey]

Leopold, to his father.

I am troubled by the word 'secede'as it seems to me to be an open invitation to insurrection.

I am in favour of the spirit of the Margrave's amendment but were I to support it there would have to be a revision to (4). Something like:

(4) The Reichsmarschall shall, for the duration of his term, use his centrally funded resources and position for the benefit of the Reich as a whole and not in pursuit of the individual interests of his Duchy or any other.

If this amendment or something like it were in place I would second the legislation myself and encourage my vassals to vote in favour, for I wholeheartedly support its objective.