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Hi! I was wondering what was the unit you most liked in STW and MI? Also any units that were absent from STW that you would like to see in S2TW?
If i had to pick up one unit from the original.It would have been Yari Samurai.While not the best maybe other then as foot anti cavalry unit, Yari samurai wasa good for many things as they could hold stronger units at bay for a bit, while also they could take a bit of arrows and musket fire before being decimated.
A unit that i think would be essential for S2TW would be Nagae Yari Ashigaru as the line unit. Difference being that the STW Ashigarus only had short spears, while the Nagae Yari Ashigaru long ones akin more to pikes. They were the mainstay of Japanese armies together with Yumi and teppo ashigaru´s specially during the latter part of the period, when the role of Ashigaru´s rose significantly.
Whats your take on this?
If i had to pick up one unit from the original.It would have been Yari Samurai.While not the best maybe other then as foot anti cavalry unit, Yari samurai wasa good for many things as they could hold stronger units at bay for a bit, while also they could take a bit of arrows and musket fire before being decimated.
A unit that i think would be essential for S2TW would be Nagae Yari Ashigaru as the line unit. Difference being that the STW Ashigarus only had short spears, while the Nagae Yari Ashigaru long ones akin more to pikes. They were the mainstay of Japanese armies together with Yumi and teppo ashigaru´s specially during the latter part of the period, when the role of Ashigaru´s rose significantly.
Whats your take on this?
Well I haven't played Shogun Total War, but I'd go for Arquebusiers- no 16th century video game is complete without them!
I'm with you Kage - yari samurai, the bread and butter of any army. Yari cav and heavy cav are nice, but I'm rather value-oriented, i.e, cheap, and their price tag makes me break out in cold sweat.
I rather enjoyed the No-dachi samurai. But any cavalry unit is also very popular with me. Although the Naginata infantry were a lot of fun as well. I'd often employ Naginata infantry and No-dachi Samurai as my shock troops, the elite of the elite! : D
Although, I also developed a long standing fondness of the swift moving cavalry. And all of the cavalry units became favorites of mine. :D
Although, I also developed a long standing fondness of the swift moving cavalry. And all of the cavalry units became favorites of mine. :D
The No-dachi is a unit I really want to like, but they die too easily, at least in my hands. It seems that even when they are flanking, they come out a battered fragment of what they were. 
Yari cav and their gameplay mechanics all the way for me!
Nagnata Cavalry.
They gloriously sweep across the field leaving piles of bodies here and there.
They gloriously sweep across the field leaving piles of bodies here and there.
I voted for Heavy Cavalry. Very expensive, but very powerful - I remember always using an HC as my general in MP battles. It beat everything except Yari Samurai, and even when outnumbered the unit held solid for a relatively long time.
The No-Dachi swordsmen were certainly a unit with low defense. But I had a few battles where they came out pretty good. (And having inflicted a lot of losses.) But their were times where they wouldn't fare to well for sure. I used them a lot to fight in forests or lay in ambush. For that role they were superb.
Missiles were certainly a hazard for no-dachi swordsmen. I recall one time I defeated a unit of them with one of my gun units. I commanded the high ground, they got pretty close but my last volley took care of the no-dachi swordsmen. (Anybody remember the massive hill that the Uesugi had? That would be a no-dachi guy's worst nightmare.)
That being said, they were a highly favored unit of mine and I always kept some in my armies.
Missiles were certainly a hazard for no-dachi swordsmen. I recall one time I defeated a unit of them with one of my gun units. I commanded the high ground, they got pretty close but my last volley took care of the no-dachi swordsmen. (Anybody remember the massive hill that the Uesugi had? That would be a no-dachi guy's worst nightmare.)
That being said, they were a highly favored unit of mine and I always kept some in my armies.
Isn't it obvious? 
Warrior Monks of course!
Warrior Monks of course!
Yumi Cav (Cavalry Archers) in SP; what should have been Yari Cavalry but ended up being Naginata Cavalry in 1.02 MP (fast medium cav with good morale). Once a player learns how to manage these well in real time they are so fun. Nothing like sowing confusion with fast units and then ramming from flank/behind when the enemy is all mixed up.
Since I can only choose one for the poll, I'll go with CA.
Since I can only choose one for the poll, I'll go with CA.
I like a nice balanced army...infantry core with cav on the flanks.
....and get bashed by all with more imagination
....and get bashed by all with more imagination
In the words of Ali: "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." The Cavalry Archer. That PITA that keeps coming back, and coming back, and coming back.....
Personally, I always train the units related with my clan: If i choose Shimazu, I train No-Dachi. If i choose Oda, I train Ashi & Muskets...
And I like every unit alot, when they characterizing their own clan.
But beyond these, I always train my heirs and generals as Yari Cavarly: I like their superb speed and scattering while chasing down rounting enemies. Sadly, scattering disappeared with Rome TW :( I was really like to hunt down deserters one by one...
So my vote is for Yari Cavalry.
As a second choice, (altough I hate high-tech units) I use "only-musket" armies, to represent today's battles.
I respect Yari Samurai army as well: it may be defeaed, but its never "weak" against any other recruit combination.
From Mongol Invasion, Mongol Light Cavalry is the strongest unit: these wild Mongol Horde scares the early ages samurai and make them rout even they would win with their long spears.
And I like every unit alot, when they characterizing their own clan.
But beyond these, I always train my heirs and generals as Yari Cavarly: I like their superb speed and scattering while chasing down rounting enemies. Sadly, scattering disappeared with Rome TW :( I was really like to hunt down deserters one by one...
So my vote is for Yari Cavalry.
As a second choice, (altough I hate high-tech units) I use "only-musket" armies, to represent today's battles.
I respect Yari Samurai army as well: it may be defeaed, but its never "weak" against any other recruit combination.
From Mongol Invasion, Mongol Light Cavalry is the strongest unit: these wild Mongol Horde scares the early ages samurai and make them rout even they would win with their long spears.
Let's see, as for my favorite unit, that was pretty circumstantial, largely depending on the faction I was playing as. Like others, I liked No-Dachi even though they were (a bit too) specialized because they fit the classic samurai image (even if it's an inaccurate, or rather anachronistic, image for this time period). Probably the best unit was the mongol horse archers, although I'm not sure if I'd really call them my favorite because they were too easy to use really.
As for units missing from the original that should/could be in the sequel:
Bow-wielding Ashigaru (think they got that though)
'Pike'-wielding Ashigaru (as mentioned above)
Taiho (sp?) Ashigaru (sometimes ship cannons were fired on the field)
Nagamaki samurai (could leave out, wasn't used much this time but would be neat)
Teppo Samurai (samurai used guns...)
Mounted Teppo Samurai (although debatable if on horseback, still nice from game angle)
Kanabo units (rare, but again interesting weapon, perhaps for sohei)
Bow-wielding sohei (many were famed for their archery skills)
Mounted sohei (they also rode horses too)
As for units missing from the original that should/could be in the sequel:
Bow-wielding Ashigaru (think they got that though)
'Pike'-wielding Ashigaru (as mentioned above)
Taiho (sp?) Ashigaru (sometimes ship cannons were fired on the field)
Nagamaki samurai (could leave out, wasn't used much this time but would be neat)
Teppo Samurai (samurai used guns...)
Mounted Teppo Samurai (although debatable if on horseback, still nice from game angle)
Kanabo units (rare, but again interesting weapon, perhaps for sohei)
Bow-wielding sohei (many were famed for their archery skills)
Mounted sohei (they also rode horses too)
While, like many others, Yari Samurai generally formed the backbone of my armies, I've always been rather partial to Samurai Archers.
They have long range, decent morale for missile troops, and they're actually not too shabby as regular infantry (especially with an honor/equipment upgrade or two). As someone who generally prefers defending over attacking, SA have probably won me more victories and/or saved my butt more times than I can count.
And when flanking with them, I try as much as possible to hit the enemy in the back, not the sides -- particularly if I'm going up against cavalry. Against regular infantry, attacking into their side should usually still produce satisfactory results.
All that being said, ND are almost always going to suffer at least some losses no matter what the situation is (due to their low armor/defense value). Even when flanking, I find that at least some attrition is almost inevitable.
They have long range, decent morale for missile troops, and they're actually not too shabby as regular infantry (especially with an honor/equipment upgrade or two). As someone who generally prefers defending over attacking, SA have probably won me more victories and/or saved my butt more times than I can count.
Originally Posted by Gregoshi:
The No-dachi is a unit I really want to like, but they die too easily, at least in my hands. It seems that even when they are flanking, they come out a battered fragment of what they were.
Well first of all, I've found that No-dachi should really be used almost exclusively for flanking in any case. About the only times I can trust them in a head-on charge is against foot units with poor melee stats (YA, SA, and possibly muskets/rifles)....and even then, it seems like their prospects are only iffy at best. The No-dachi is a unit I really want to like, but they die too easily, at least in my hands. It seems that even when they are flanking, they come out a battered fragment of what they were.
And when flanking with them, I try as much as possible to hit the enemy in the back, not the sides -- particularly if I'm going up against cavalry. Against regular infantry, attacking into their side should usually still produce satisfactory results.
All that being said, ND are almost always going to suffer at least some losses no matter what the situation is (due to their low armor/defense value). Even when flanking, I find that at least some attrition is almost inevitable.
Horse Archer. The way you could use them gave a huge momentum in game, harras and push enemy. Its a lot easyer to use this, if not each unit can shoot ;)
I liked the Monks until they nerfed them but the Horse Archers were easily the best unit all round. If you didn't learn how to use them you were pretty much toast.
I want to see Teppo Cavalry. Masamune Date employed them in his army at the last Battle of Osaka castle.
Perhaps for balance and accuracy though they should have a really high price and upkeep, and maybe a long series of buildings before you can train them. As they were rarely fielded in large numbers, and they were employed in the latter years of the Sengoku period.
Perhaps for balance and accuracy though they should have a really high price and upkeep, and maybe a long series of buildings before you can train them. As they were rarely fielded in large numbers, and they were employed in the latter years of the Sengoku period.
That would be interesting. CA can also limit them to a certain time period, like some units were limited to certain eras only in MTW. Limiting them to "late game" and requiring a considerable infrastructure to produce them would prevent them from being overly spammed in all but the most turtley of games (I made a new adjective!).
And it'd be more cav! Yay!!
And it'd be more cav! Yay!!
Since CA clearly stated that the focus will be MP, they cant make it complex. 3 Timezones, early, middle and late will cause problems.
Im pretty sure, that we gonna see a very "easy" game. One area, one amount of cash, one unitsize, no weather too choose and so on.
As long not every single unit can get a gun out it will be fine! :D
Koc
Im pretty sure, that we gonna see a very "easy" game. One area, one amount of cash, one unitsize, no weather too choose and so on.
As long not every single unit can get a gun out it will be fine! :D
Koc
I think a single era works out fine as long as the infrastructure requirements make sense. A lot of the higher tech units could also be "hidden", like the No-dachi and gun troops from the first game (unrecruitable until after certain events). I know there's a lot of pressure on CA to innovate, but there's some really good ideas in that ten year old gem. I think they should use some!
And to be prefectly truthful, the technology unlock events (legendary swordsmen, visitors from foreign lands, ect) added so much character to the campaign experience, it would be a treat to see their return.
And to be prefectly truthful, the technology unlock events (legendary swordsmen, visitors from foreign lands, ect) added so much character to the campaign experience, it would be a treat to see their return.
Though I used eras as an example, I wasn't implying they were necessary to use a date as a factor in when a troop type could be trained. A simple date restriction would be enough, say tied to an event in the campaign.
Even with an MP focus, there will be a campaign. My thinking of tying the availability of a particular unit type to a date is specific to an SP campaign. I disliked the effect of eras on MP in MTW. From my point of view, MP and SP can and should be approached as different animals with similarities, but no dependencies that detrimentally affect the game play or balance of either. I think this can be accomplished.
That being said, I agree that "as simple as possible" while still captivating is the way to go.
Even with an MP focus, there will be a campaign. My thinking of tying the availability of a particular unit type to a date is specific to an SP campaign. I disliked the effect of eras on MP in MTW. From my point of view, MP and SP can and should be approached as different animals with similarities, but no dependencies that detrimentally affect the game play or balance of either. I think this can be accomplished.
That being said, I agree that "as simple as possible" while still captivating is the way to go.
Originally Posted by Kocmoc:
Since CA clearly stated that the focus will be MP, they cant make it complex. 3 Timezones, early, middle and late will cause problems.
Im pretty sure, that we gonna see a very "easy" game. One area, one amount of cash, one unitsize, no weather too choose and so on.
As long not every single unit can get a gun out it will be fine! :D
Koc
Its not really a gunpowder era, if you read the history of the period the guns were highly inaccurate and didnt have much of an effect on the battle unless the Samurai were forced into charging them head on or ambushed. Thankfully this is not NTW where the top 1v1s games nearly always consist of players moving backwards and forwards to try and gain a decent shooting advantage, if you did that in Shogun you'd be ripped a new flank.Since CA clearly stated that the focus will be MP, they cant make it complex. 3 Timezones, early, middle and late will cause problems.
Im pretty sure, that we gonna see a very "easy" game. One area, one amount of cash, one unitsize, no weather too choose and so on.
As long not every single unit can get a gun out it will be fine! :D
Koc
Limited guns with bad accuracy please like we had before with terrible melee skills, just remove the shooting through hills.
Originally Posted by Sp00n:
Its not really a gunpowder era, if you read the history of the period the guns were highly inaccurate and didnt have much of an effect on the battle unless the Samurai were forced into charging them head on or ambushed. Thankfully this is not NTW where the top 1v1s games nearly always consist of players moving backwards and forwards to try and gain a decent shooting advantage, if you did that in Shogun you'd be ripped a new flank.
Limited guns with bad accuracy please like we had before with terrible melee skills, just remove the shooting through hills.
Its was more kind of sarcasm toward the current NTW, my lack of english skills cause sometimes a bit confusion. Sorry for this.Its not really a gunpowder era, if you read the history of the period the guns were highly inaccurate and didnt have much of an effect on the battle unless the Samurai were forced into charging them head on or ambushed. Thankfully this is not NTW where the top 1v1s games nearly always consist of players moving backwards and forwards to try and gain a decent shooting advantage, if you did that in Shogun you'd be ripped a new flank.
Limited guns with bad accuracy please like we had before with terrible melee skills, just remove the shooting through hills.
Also about eras, i just spoke about MP, different timesteps in the campaign are highly needed, i doubt that CA will have any trouble creating a great campaign.
I remember endless discussions about MP and SP. In my opinion you have to strictly divide the both sides from each other and create 2 different unitstats.
Maybe even thin out the amount of units. Look at NTW, while some units might be used in SP, in MP they never get used.
I just have to look at the unplayed factions like russian or danes... The units work in SP, but not in MP.
It doesnt hurt, you jsut cant/wont play with these units/factions.
Either CA balance this units and give them different stats in MP or they just take it out and dont bring the factions.
Factions itself is one of the problems, why make it harder with giving factions different unit and some a stronger melee, while other stronger cav?
This makes maybe sense, if you look at it from a historical point of view, yes. If you want gameplay and balance, it becomes almost pointless.
There were no factions in STW, everyone could choose within all units. While in NTW, the factions vs each other has to balanced. Counter are needed, i just dont believe that a certain faction should counter another.
I think that in such a system the setup with the lowest counterpart will always be in favor. Keep it simple.
Mike I was'nt dissagreeing there, my view is the same with you on guns.
I agree :) keep it simple I mentioned this a while back in a previous post. The original was pretty well balanced, I'd be happy if they kept the same winning template and maybe just added a few more balanced units.
I don't like the gunpowder era that much tbh and personally I hope the muskets are as weak as possible in Shogun. A return to melee, arrows and decent flanking with strong Cav.
I agree :) keep it simple I mentioned this a while back in a previous post. The original was pretty well balanced, I'd be happy if they kept the same winning template and maybe just added a few more balanced units.
I don't like the gunpowder era that much tbh and personally I hope the muskets are as weak as possible in Shogun. A return to melee, arrows and decent flanking with strong Cav.
I just cant believe how many of you guys even like the Cavalry Archers... I hate them, I never train them.
* They can't bow while moving.
* It's so hard to move them quickly, because of lack of STW AI... (You know, you order to retreat, but the guys at the front comes to rear first, then the unit start moving, but before that enemy units arrive and kill some of them, then they decide to ignore my order and try to fight, and then everything falls apart and you get angry enough to shut the game down...)
* They cant fight against any infantry, their morale is extremely poor.
* And worse than all these; after few minutes of catch and run, they somehow decide to rout!.. (I think CA put this against the endless catch & run tactics, or against the exploit of time limit factor.)
After RTW, with move and hit ability, they become the ruler of the open field battles, ofcourse. But still... I just cant stand to see the Horse Archers as the most popular unit in this sacred Dojo!
* They can't bow while moving.
* It's so hard to move them quickly, because of lack of STW AI... (You know, you order to retreat, but the guys at the front comes to rear first, then the unit start moving, but before that enemy units arrive and kill some of them, then they decide to ignore my order and try to fight, and then everything falls apart and you get angry enough to shut the game down...)
* They cant fight against any infantry, their morale is extremely poor.
* And worse than all these; after few minutes of catch and run, they somehow decide to rout!.. (I think CA put this against the endless catch & run tactics, or against the exploit of time limit factor.)
After RTW, with move and hit ability, they become the ruler of the open field battles, ofcourse. But still... I just cant stand to see the Horse Archers as the most popular unit in this sacred Dojo!
Originally Posted by Yesugey:
I just cant believe how many of you guys even like the Cavalry Archers... I hate them, I never train them.
...
Heh, well ... if you don't like them in SP then you certainly won't like them in MP. I think because they are difficult to master, many like them for the challenge. Some of my most frustrating MP losses were to players who were really good with their CA. What you describe about their behavior and control issues are true, but they can be overcome.I just cant believe how many of you guys even like the Cavalry Archers... I hate them, I never train them.
...
If you head over to the Wolves forum and look at the horse archer replays in the Downloads section (for MTW/VI, I think but the idea is the same in STW), you can see how deadly they can be when used well. CA are difficult to learn, and you have to adjust your tactics, but once you get that all down, they can be very effective and fun to use--and extremely frustrating to fight against if you don't know how to counter them! I think this is another reason why advanced players gravitate to them: beginners and intermediate players are used to playing in a particular way and don't know how to counter a CA-heavy army well. I certainly didn't. I wanted to wring Sasaki's neck after he trounced me about 10 times in a row using the techniques illustrated in the replays.
Originally Posted by Yesugey:
I just cant believe how many of you guys even like the Cavalry Archers... I hate them, I never train them.
* They can't bow while moving.
* It's so hard to move them quickly, because of lack of STW AI... (You know, you order to retreat, but the guys at the front comes to rear first, then the unit start moving, but before that enemy units arrive and kill some of them, then they decide to ignore my order and try to fight, and then everything falls apart and you get angry enough to shut the game down...)
* They cant fight against any infantry, their morale is extremely poor.
* And worse than all these; after few minutes of catch and run, they somehow decide to rout!.. (I think CA put this against the endless catch & run tactics, or against the exploit of time limit factor.)
After RTW, with move and hit ability, they become the ruler of the open field battles, ofcourse. But still... I just cant stand to see the Horse Archers as the most popular unit in this sacred Dojo!
They were great in MP but you had to master them in the right hands they were deadly, you obviously never played Magyarkhan online (the best cav Archer player in Shogun imo) I doubt you'd say they sucked had you done.I just cant believe how many of you guys even like the Cavalry Archers... I hate them, I never train them.
* They can't bow while moving.
* It's so hard to move them quickly, because of lack of STW AI... (You know, you order to retreat, but the guys at the front comes to rear first, then the unit start moving, but before that enemy units arrive and kill some of them, then they decide to ignore my order and try to fight, and then everything falls apart and you get angry enough to shut the game down...)
* They cant fight against any infantry, their morale is extremely poor.
* And worse than all these; after few minutes of catch and run, they somehow decide to rout!.. (I think CA put this against the endless catch & run tactics, or against the exploit of time limit factor.)
After RTW, with move and hit ability, they become the ruler of the open field battles, ofcourse. But still... I just cant stand to see the Horse Archers as the most popular unit in this sacred Dojo!
You could destroy your oponent with them if you knew what you were doing, Wolves do have some MTW replays like Toga said but Cav Archers were far more deadly in Shogun mainly due to a lot of the units having weak armor.
Magy has posted some of his old Shogun battles on Youtube so you can see Cav Archers destroying players online there.
Here's one sorry NC :)
https://www.youtube.com/user/Magyark.../1/8sA103nH3Ps
Originally Posted by :
* They cant fight against any infantry, their morale is extremely poor.
Hmmm. Neither is true for the Cavalry archers that I use* They cant fight against any infantry, their morale is extremely poor.
While you certainly don't want a head-on charge into spears, I will often use my CA to assist other cavalry in a flanking or back charge. Morale depends on a lot of factors, many of which you can control. I can't recall a time when my CA's simply broke and ran after playing catch-me-if-you-can with enemy cavalry......
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