polybian reforms

[carthage121]

This is my first time playing the mod, and I'm playing as the Romans. I recently finished off all but one cartheginian territory (don't know where it is) and I recently recieved the polybian reforms. One thing I didn't know is that even if u have advanced barracks, u have to build another one to get the new reform, so i was wondering whether i should destroy an old barrack in order to get the new one.

In any case, I built a new barracks somewhere else to check out my new units. I was pretty pissed to find that the new polybian ones actually have worse attack/defense stats than the old ones. Is there something I'm missing here? Aren't reforms suppossed to improve your army?

[divulse123]

Not all reforms are universally positive. The Roman infantry units typically receive higher defense and morale stats for the Polybian reforms. The Equites Romani, however, have a lower armor rating. The devs seemed to have followed historical trends. The Roman cavalry changed from bronze muscle cuirasses to lorica hamata, which should account for the drop off in defense rating. They do, however, have improved discipline ratings in the Polybian version.

[Atilius]

I was pretty pissed to find that the new polybian ones actually have worse attack/defense stats than the old ones.

Triarii and equites are less well armored, Principes and Hastati are better. The attack rating for the Camillan principes is misleading because most (all?) spearmen get a +4 adjustment which I'm not going to explain. Suffice it to say that an attack ratings of 7 for a swordsman is equivalent to 11 for a spearman. The Polybian army as a whole is markedly superior to the Camillan.

Aren't reforms suppossed to improve your army?

Not necessarily, they are intended to demonstrate how ancient armies evolved with time.

[Mulceber]

The one exception, I think, is in their skirmishers - I find Camillan skirmishers very useful. By the Polybian Era they're just dead weight. But I suppose that works from a role-playing perspective - Rome's army is becoming more professional and is thus moving toward more heavy infantry and a reliance on allies to provide the lighter stuff. On the whole though, I agree with you Atilius - Polybian units are significantly better. -M

[athanaric]

See this thread.

Are Polybian units worse than Camillan?

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: It's a myth arisen from the fact that certain Camillan units are better at certain specific tasks than their later counterparts. Triarii and Equites Romani are slightly worse overall after the reforms. Leves and Rorarii (IIRC) disappear. So much for the worse part.
However, your other units gain increased AoR. Hastati and Principes gain additional armour and become better at assault tasks. With Velites, you get skirmishers that are more reliable than Leves, better armoured and also cooler looking.

Your army as a whole loses some anti-cavalry potential but gains significantly more anti-infantry power. Armour increases on average (Skirmishers, Hastati, Principes), despite Triarii and Equites Romani losing one or two points.

--

The one exception, I think, is in their skirmishers - I find Camillan skirmishers very useful. By the Polybian Era they're just dead weight.

Um, Velites are quite good. Better than Leves in any case.

[Rahl]

Um, Velites are quite good. Better than Leves in any case.

200 instead of 240 soldiers per unit, but only the same range attack and amount of throwing spears for more money. Okay, they have 3 or 4 armour points more and wield a small shortsword, but I use light skirmishers nearly never in melee especially when you have so strong infantry. You can debate if they are worse than Leves, but better in any case is just not true.

[athanaric]

200 instead of 240 soldiers per unit, but only the same range attack and amount of throwing spears for more money. Okay, they have 3 or 4 armour points more and wield a small shortsword, but I use light skirmishers nearly never in melee especially when you have so strong infantry. You can debate if they are worse than Leves, but better in any case is just not true.

Did you check morale and discipline?

Edit: I thought so. Velites have higher skill, mass, morale (by 3 points, no less), and discipline. Their secondary weapon is technically worse but against infantry still at least as good as the Leves' spear.
Check for yourself:
Velites
Leves

Leves are only better against non-ranged cavalry. Or if you just want to pump out as many javelins as possible.

[vladiator]

I recently finished off all but one cartheginian territory (don't know where it is) and I recently recieved the polybian reforms.

Just on this point -- have you discovered the Boleares -- the island off the east coast of Spain? I was in the same situation as you until I accidentally came across it. The island is not visible if your ships simply follow the coastline -- you need to get a bit further into the Sea.

[Vaginacles]

why waste valuable population when you can just recruit far better skirmishers from sicily, africa, and greece? I've never really needed to train skirmishers because they always end up as meat shields for archers/elephants and i find simply buying them and then killing them off battle per battle more efficient than going back and forth retraining skirmishers and depleting valuable pop for upgrades.

[Revoltie]

Then you are misusing skirmishers, they are a bloody efficient troop if you know how to use them, nice for destracting people and killing anything that ins not a phalanx or a hoplite

[Mulceber]

Agreed - Skirmishers can be very useful. Great way to soften up the enemy before your heavy infantry get involved. -M