Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of Papy

[edyzmedieval]

Well, I live in the aforementioned place, so I only have to say that the Roma minority will return to France. Italy will be the next destination as well.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, the fact that France is considering the restriction of free travel of Romanians to the country is EXTREMELY racist from my part. I find it downright insulting. Not to mention it limits my ability of going wherever I wish to travel.

[Brenus]

Agree. Sakozy is the shame of France. Whatever the problems due to some Roma, the political exploitation is a form of racism even I doubt Sarkozy himself being Racist.

He even plans to break the Social Contract, the foundation of Modern France, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
He will create two sorts of French.

This man is a walking dishonour.

[rory_20_uk]

Are Romanians a race? I didn't think so.

Since he's not discriminating against a race, it isn't racist.

[Tristuskhan]

Since he's not discriminating against a race, it isn't racist.

Indeed. Scientifically, there are no "races" within mankind, so, if I understand well from your point of view there is no racism of any kind anywhere since the last Neanderthalian died... What a joke...
Seen from the inside (of France), all the ******* thing is plain, outrageous racism. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Fragony]

Indeed. Scientifically, there are no "races" within mankind, so, if I understand well from your point of view there is no racism of any kind anywhere since the last Neanderthalian died... What a joke...
Seen from the inside (of France), all the ******* thing is plain, outrageous racism. Nothing more, nothing less.

So what if it is? People should stop whining about discrimination prejudice is experience most of the time; Roma's are pretty much useless.

[Fragony]

And what discrimination, the nasty look they get when they cling onto you sobbing until the extra fat Mercedes picks them up? Their kids can go to school but they drug them instead for that extra boohoohoo (yeah that is why they look so ill). And all the while leeching on state handouts. Going to blame France because they live a life of begging and stealing instead of getting an education and a job? They are travelers for a reason, people always eventually get sick of them.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Seeing as how concerning the subject I'm somewhat to the left of Idi Amin but slightly to the right of Frags and Hitler, some classic rock instead.


Scandal ft. Patty Smyth. One of rock's great underrated voices. A rock career cut short owing to record company troubles, she later went on to marry John McEnroe. She / they are currently touring again!


Goodbye to you!

[Tristuskhan]

So what if it is? People should stop whining about discrimination prejudice is experience most of the time; Roma's are pretty much useless.

You're nervous, Frag... I don't complain about racism, knowing it's useless: racism exists and there's nothing I can do about it. I just find it deeply disturbing when racists clame they are not. Erh, in order to enlighten me, can you explain what you mean when you write "prejudice is experience", please, coz' it sounds hard to assimilate face value.
Oh and about your second message, the thing one should complain about is that Sarko uses Romanis, who are weak, ignorant, have no friends and are definitely antipathic, as a nice political tool to drag the debate away from his oligarchic-ultrafriendly policy, a policy that costs France much more than all Romanis can dream of. President 50 cent(imeters) is playing with fire...

[Rhyfelwyr]

Are Romanians a race? I didn't think so.

Yes, they are descended from the Roman settlers to Dacia. *where is the surprise smilie*

[Louis VI the Fat]

In the last few years, in just a few years, bidonvilles have sprung up at the edges of several French towns, Lille, Bordeaux, Saint-Denis. Imported third world slums: poverty, crime, misery .

I am sure it is all very tragic and blahblah, but just why France should solve the world's problems I don't understand. So as far as I'm concerned, Sarko can even kick it up a notch, and test and try the legal possibilities to get rid of them a bit more. Let the EU and Romania and everybody else shed their tear if they must.

My tears are only shed because I know they'll all be back in three months time.

Why oh why should some Roma who arrived in France in 2007, who's lived of stealing, begging and state support, who barely speaks any French, why should he be part of French solidarity? (In contrast to his cousin, who did not move to France several months ago and who lives 200 kilometer down the road?)
If there is a Roma problem, then let France help solve it in Romania and Bulgaria. Rather than import it. The world is full of poor people. There are a billion poor beggars who would love to set up a shanty town at the edge of some French city. I bet half the Vazelas of Rio de Janeiro would love to move themselves to Bordeaux, or Kinshasha, or all the poor of Bangladesh. Sorry, tough luck.



The economic powerhouse and capital of French gastronomy, Lyon. And it's bidonville, one third of its inhabitants children, who beg, steal and rummage through garbage for a living. I am not sure any of this adds any meaningful dimension to French society.
There are plenty of indigenous communities of itinerant peoples, with lots of unresolved difficulties. No need to import more.

[Meneldil]

Why oh why should some Roma who arrived in France in 2007, who's lived of stealing, begging and state support, who barely speaks any French, why should he be part of French solidarity? (In contrast to his cousin, who did not move to France several months ago and who lives 200 kilometer down the road?)

That's my question too. Not only am I asked to bear with their constant bothering anytime I go to downtown, but I'd also have to pay for their healthcare and security, even though I don't share anything with these people? No way. There are already enough who lives off the state. No need to add more.

[Tristuskhan]

That's my question too. Not only am I asked to bear with their constant bothering anytime I go to downtown, but I'd also have to pay for their healthcare and security, even though I don't share anything with these people? No way. There are already enough who lives off the state. No need to add more.

Meh, probably I should think the same about southern white thrash, you know.

[Fragony]

Meh, probably I should think the same about southern white thrash, you know.

You can, that's 100% ok to say, putting things in perspective and all that gutmensch will call it. White trash, what can I say they exist, so why not help these first instead of importing more illiterates who will never contribute anything except making the pity-industry filthy rich.

[rory_20_uk]

Can't we export them both?

[al Roumi]

Can't we export them both?

That was part of the point of the colonies... Slap 'em in irons and ship them off to another continent.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Took me a moment to connect "roma" with "gypsys" (still the common term in USA).

I wonder if some kind of "nomadic" citizenship rights/responsibilities thing could be promulgated.

Other thought...wouldn't a true EU citizenship negate the national borders anyway, making them no more of a barrier then state borders are in the USA?

[Furunculus]

Took me a moment to connect "roma" with "gypsys" (still the common term in USA).

I wonder if some kind of "nomadic" citizenship rights/responsibilities thing could be promulgated.

Other thought...wouldn't a true EU citizenship negate the national borders anyway, making them no more of a barrier then state borders are in the USA?

that's rather the problem, who wants the millions of romanian gypsies when the border restrictions are lifted!

[Meneldil]

Meh, probably I should think the same about southern white thrash, you know.

I'm tempted to say the reason why Southern France is plagued by unemployement, poverty and subsequently, macho-male-useless-white-trashes and pregant teens is because of the huge percentage of north-african population here. The second most visited website in my Region (Languedoc-Roussillon) is la CAF (behind chatroulette). Yep, that's how sad it is.

We attract all the trash of France, thanks to the sun, the beaches and Georges Frêche Imperator the First, who provides social housing to all kind of useless people. Thank me for taking care of your homeless punks. It's the garbage bin of the country.

[Tristuskhan]

I'm tempted to say the reason why Southern France is plagued by unemployement, poverty and subsequently, macho-male-useless-white-trashes and pregant teens is because of the huge percentage of north-african population here.

I understand you're upset but you'll need evidence about that. I've lived in Languedoc-Roussillon, I saw the unemployment, poverty et al. It was in Northern Lozère. Hard to blame it on North Africans up there, isn't it?

The second most visited website in my Region (Languedoc-Roussillon) is la CAF (behind chatroulette). Yep, that's how sad it is.

Sad, of course, but I'd like to figure how it is in other regions. My bet would be the difference is chatroulette, that fits so well to the natural superficiality of southern french people, but who knows?

We attract all the trash of France, thanks to the sun, the beaches and Georges Frêche Imperator the First, who provides social housing to all kind of useless people.

Same could be said about Brittany, apart from Big G(eorges Frêche), and now Brittany's north africans become hard-working good-tempered dominated-by-their-wives drunkards and pot-smokers as any Breton is... so I say blame it on the locals.

Thank me for taking care of your homeless punks.

And thank me for working and paying taxes for you all lazy sods...

It's the garbage bin of the country.

Love it or leave it, my advice.

[Meneldil]

I understand you're upset but you'll need evidence about that. I've lived in Languedoc-Roussillon, I saw the unemployment, poverty et al. It was in Northern Lozère. Hard to blame it on North Africans up there, isn't it?

I lived in Aurillac (Cantal) for 5 monthes. Cantal is - AFAIK - the second or third poorest departement in France. As soon as you leave downtown, the city is only made of social housing. Yet, even though I've seen some sad things (such as lot of homeless bums, etc.), I've never encountered the level of violence you can witness everyday in Montpellier. The only time I saw someone behaving like an ass (calling a girl "slut" in the middle of the street), it was a... a group of young arabs.
Even during the Festival du Théâtre de Rue, which attracts all the punks of France, you can still walk around the city at night without being annoyed every five minutes.

Sad, of course, but I'd like to figure how it is in other regions. My bet would be the difference is chatroulette, that fits so well to the natural superficiality of southern french people, but who knows?

As far as I know, Languedoc-Roussillon is the only region where La Caf was more visited than the Pôle Emploi. I'll look for the study again if you wish, but the results were published in the Midi Libre when I worked there this summer.

Same could be said about Brittany, apart from Big G(eorges Frêche), and now Brittany's north africans become hard-working good-tempered dominated-by-their-wives drunkards and pot-smokers as any Breton is... so I say blame it on the locals.

Good for you then. Though honestly, everytime I go to Brittany, I rarely see any north-african. There are some in Nantes and Rennes, but the further west you go, the less of them you meet. The situation doesn't really compare to Montpellier, Nîmes or Béziers, where north-africans make up between 30% and 40% of the population. It is much easier to assimilate a dozen of migrants than ten thousands of them.

And thank me for working and paying taxes for you all lazy sods...Love it or leave it, my advice.

I work and pay my taxes too, and I indeed don't plan on staying in the South. As for your paternalistic tone toward the South, that's kind of the Hôpital qui se fout de la charité, as Brittany has been regarded as one of the most backward part of France until not too long ago. Now it has this whole aura of coolness to it, but things havn't always been that way.

[gaelic cowboy]

Patty Smyth. One of rock's great underrated voices. A rock career cut short owing to record company troubles, she later went on to marry John McEnroe. She / they are currently touring again!


Goodbye to you!

The years of hard living caught up with her I met her a few years back when I worked in Radisson hotel part time back in college she was there for some kind of evening with show. I had no clue who she was till I googled her she seems to be into painting now she displayed her work in the local gallery.

[Tristuskhan]

I work and pay my taxes too, and I indeed don't plan on staying in the South. As for your paternalistic tone toward the South, that's kind of the Hôpital qui se fout de la charité, as Brittany has been regarded as one of the most backward part of France until not too long ago. Now it has this whole aura of coolness to it, but things havn't always been that way.

Paternalistic, uh? There you got it... It's all a matter of where you draw the line between "them" and "us". Seen from brittany or wherever people still work a bit, all the south can be pictured as a whole bunch of useless idiots. Rightously shocking for you and many others? Indeed. But not more shocking than assimilating anyone of north-african (or how do you say down there? Boukaques? Gris? 'gnoules?) ascent to some scum like you do. Using your logics, I could say that since YOU were assimilated by "them", well you're now part of "them" and so should be considered like you consider "them".
Sorry, I was upset by the way you're puting every what? Let's say "arab", in the same basket. Insulting many people I know, including my father-in-law and many friends of mine. So I got to use your logics.

Ps: oh, and if you think there are no immigrants in western Brittany just have a walk in: Quartier Balzac in Saint Brieuc (where I'm from), Lanbezellec in Brest or Kervenanec in Lorient. Maybe you'll change your mind a bit.

[Fragony]

There are problems with immigrants and north-africans in particular, much more likely to be criminal and leech on tax, simply the reality, or isn't it. Had Mo and Tafik for dinner yesterday, Mo is Palistinian and Tafik is from Marocco, they tirelessly insist I got it all wrong and that I am an idiot, but at least they recognise that problem.

[Furunculus]

roflmao -

"Nicolas Sarkozy has sparked a bitter EU row by suggesting that the European Commissioner who compared his Roma policy to Nazi deportations should offer to host expelled gipsies in her native country of Luxembourg."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...uxembourg.html

quite right sarko!

[InsaneApache]

LOL indeed.

For those who think the Roma are being unfairly treated, I say this. If you're that bothered open up your house to them and let them live in your back garden and see how long you keep your liberal attitudes.

Most on here know that I'm quite socially liberal but there are limits. I've had many dealings with 'travellers' and it's cost me a pretty penny or two. Behaviour such as begging, stealing and pickpocketing are not acceptable or desirable. Remember this, stealing destroys wealth.

[Fragony]

Kudos for that Hungarian midget. A valid screw you to a shameful comparison made by an a ivory-tower hypocrite eurocrat. About time she joins the post war resistance and offers them her garden. I bet they are also hungry, of to the kitchen.

[rory_20_uk]

As a cohort, they do not provide much tax and certainty not much infrastructure or healthcare, although will require a disproportionate amount themselves.

It is not the race, it is the mode of life that I object to as it has a clearly defined negative impact on society and the country.

[_Tristan_]

Well, afaik, as european citizens the Roma can't be kept wherever you kick them too. As raised above, what is to stop them returning to France after repatriation and receiving their payout?

They are already one step ahead : some Roms who had accepted the 300€ to leave France and their lawyers had the good idea to cross the border into Belgium (witnessed by photograph) before crossing the border back for 3 new months of French tranquility and welfare, being now 300 € richer

On a sidenote, working in law enforcement, I can attest to the fact that we've seen a major drop in burglaries in the area I work since Rom camps evictions have begun... It is easy to draw a parallel from one to the next...

[Sarmatian]

I don`t think the issue is whether Roma are contributing to the society but whether those human right and certain western values we talk about constantly apply on everyone or just on the select few?

They are citizens of EU, if they are stealing, arrest them and convict them, don`t expel them.

[deguerra]

I suppose there are two distinct issues here.

Firstly (and what my own opinion has been focused on) there is the law, as in the EU directives that deal with how the freedom of movement is implemented in this case. Now I have no idea what exactly the law is, and from this thread and the media in general I gather that I am not alone. But, if it is the case that what France is doing is against EU law, then there must be consequences and it must stop. If our happy little European Union is going to work we cannot simply ignore it when we see fit (and I say this as a German who knows that we don't exactly have the best track record on this either). If, on the other hand (as others have suggested) what France is doing is correct or perhaps that the law is unclear then this becomes a completely distinct moral issue.

Morally, this is an entire different argument, and not one I think I have really made my mind up on. But suffice to say that while I think Human Rights etc cannot be ignored, I agree that France must look first to the rights of its own citizens and that an ethnic group or race or culture cannot be given endless freedoms and require endless costs of the French state just because stopping so might be seen as "discriminatory", It is, after all, not the fact that they are part of this ethnic group or race or culture that is the problem, but rather their behaviour.

Then of course you can talk about whether our happy little European Union (yes I will continue to use that phrase :P) should ever have gotten so wide before it got a bit "deeper", but at the end of the day that is a mostly philosophical argument now. Leaders need to implement vision, that vision led to the wider EU and now we have to deal with situations in that reality.