Advices for 120 men units

[TWD]

Hello all,

In a recent attempt to up the difficulty in Shogun, I've found myself changing the settings to 120 men units... which seems popular around here.

It gives :
- More maintenance (I assume the AI has discounts on units maintenance) ;
- Scarcer reinforcements for a reduced mobility on the strategic map.

Well, I find it very difficult to use on the battlefield for several reasons. Hence I have plenty of questions regarding this setting :
1) Units seem to respond to orders more slowly than with 60 men units. How do you manage this ? Is it only a matter of anticipation ?
2) If they are only 3-4 ranks deep, units are very wide. How do you adjust this, if at all ? Ranged units are obviously more efficient with only few ranks ; what about melee units ? Or, to put it otherwise, what's the tradeoff between a larger front or deeper ranks ?
3) We have less units, which makes flanking more difficult. Ranged units seem to gain more importance on the battlefield to make up for this. Is that what you noticed as well ?
4) (Related to 3) Small battles seem to incurr many more losses than with 60 men units. Is there a way around this ?

Thanks in advance for your enlightened opinion,
Greetings,
TWD.

[chaouki]

it's been a couple of months since i played shogun the last time, but if i clearly remember ranged units with 120men are best deployed in 3 ranks because the fourth, fifth etc don't shoot.
playing with this unit size gives the seasons more importance because due to the building time of 2 seasons for most units you have to build them one season before "payday" when koku are collected so that the unit will just count for the next year (but of course only if it still exists on "payday")
besides, multiple units of 120 warmonks scare the hell out of me...at least until they get pounded by ?x120 teppos :D

[caravel]

I may not be the best to answer this as I've only ever actually used huge units anyway, but I'll give it a go.

- More maintenance (I assume the AI has discounts on units maintenance)

I'm not sure about this, I wouldn't think the AI gets an upkeep discount as the troops support is per man, not per unit. STW v1.12 allowed the AI effectively infinite koku, but MI/WE doesn't. This is why in MI/WE you shouldn't see the formation of a "Hojo Horde" several years into the SJ campaign.

- Scarcer reinforcements for a reduced mobility on the strategic map.

I haven't noticed scarcer reinforcements, it depends on how many units you want to train and deploy in one battle. I've never had a shortage of koku for unit training in any of my campaigns. Early on though this may be the case, but I don't really have any comparison with the other units sizes.

1) Units seem to respond to orders more slowly than with 60 men units. How do you manage this ? Is it only a matter of anticipation ?

Not noticed this either, it probably takes the larger units longer to turn in formation, but I've not noticed a lack of responsiveness.

2) If they are only 3-4 ranks deep, units are very wide. How do you adjust this, if at all ? Ranged units are obviously more efficient with only few ranks ; what about melee units ? Or, to put it otherwise, what's the tradeoff between a larger front or deeper ranks ?

I tend to march units into position in a narrower formation and then spread them out to wider formation on arrival. The wider formation are something you get used to - the enemy are just as wide. Deeper ranks are more vulnerable to missiles, wider fronts are more unwieldy and vulnerable to flanking. Something in between is better for all purposes, especially for cavalry, no dachi and monks. For YA, YS and SA I favour a wider front, for teppo you have the choice of a wider front to allow every man to fire at once or deeper ranks for volley fire.

3) We have less units, which makes flanking more difficult. Ranged units seem to gain more importance on the battlefield to make up for this. Is that what you noticed as well ?

Flanking is easier if you use wedge formation - then switch to a standard formation, this increases mobility and allows units to squeeze through tighter areas.

4) (Related to 3) Small battles seem to incurr many more losses than with 60 men units. Is there a way around this ?

I've not noticed this myself. If these are losses to enemy archery/guns then your formations may be too deep or you may not be switching standing units to loose formation when they come under fire.

The criticism for huge units is that they are simply too large for the small battle maps in STW, the plus side is that battles become more tactical and the two season training time adds a new dimension in forward planning.

[TWD]

Thank you, both of you.

I'll keep on testing this setting. Wide front --> resistant to flanking but vulnerable to range makes sense :)