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  1. #1
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Global Climate Disruption.

    First we had Global warming. Then we had Climate Change. Ladies and Gentlemen, may I proudly announce our new friend, Global Climate Disruption.

    Now for those who questioned why I had changed my mind about Global Warming, here's why...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last November things began to go seriously wrong for the IPCC version of science. Things started after a leading Indian glaciologist called VK Raina publicly pointed out that he disagreed with the IPCC conclusion that the Himalayan glaciers would melt away within 30 years. Raina said studies showed that at the present rate of melting, the glaciers would take hundreds of years to do so. The Indian public had previously been told that the waters from the Himalayas would dry up within their lifetimes, so this good news was published on the front pages of the Indian newspapers.

    Dr Rajendra Pachauri, using his title as the chairman of IPCC, reacted strongly against the good news and told the press there were no errors in the conclusions of the IPCC AR4 report. He told the press that VK Raina's conclusions were based on “voodoo science”, and that his opinions were not worth listening to. Questions were raised by observers, who couldn’t help noticing the strong reactions from the IPCC chairman, at the cost of addressing the errors themselves.

    Pachauri’s crude attempts did not work and within days VK Raina found himself being interviewed by the Indian media alongside a very political Englishman who was not a glaciologist. Whether Raina appreciated Dr Richard North’s intervention I do not know, but certainly North had a different style about how to confront the smearing of Raina’s reputation by the chairman of the IPCC.



    By that time, the error had been tracked back to a glaciologist called Syed Hasnain. Through a simple error, a rumour had developed that the glaciers would be gone within 40 years and the IPCC had published this story as part of its conclusions. Hasnain admitted to the press that there was an error in the IPCC report.

    Eventually Pachauri had to acknowledge the IPCC’s error but the record in the assessment report (AR4) was never corrected, and remains incorrect to date.

    One under-reported aspect of this scandal was the fact that Pachauri had a charity called TERI, which was poised to benefit from millions of euros and hundreds of thousands of dollars set aside to study the melting of the Himalayan glaciers. It turned out that TERI had used the IPCC’s very prediction of glacier doom in asking for funds. It also turned out that Hasnain was at work at TERI studying Himalayan glacier melt. It also turned out that Hasnain already knew about about the exaggerations in the IPCC report. The Sunday Telegraph became the venue where Richard North, who had uncovered major portions of this story, published these stories. Perhaps, as a result of this exposure, the Carnegie Corporation of New York decided to release no further funds to TERI.

    On his blog, North asked obvious questions about the conflict of interest of one person being responsible for overseeing the writing of IPCC reports without error and running a charity which received money to study the conclusions of the IPCC reports. Was he tardy in responding because TERI’s glaciology team studied the same problem of catastrophic melt and therefore he assumed the problem to be genuine? North also raised questions about the accounts of TERI-Europe which is a charity run by Dr Pachauri from a suburban house in South London.

    For the IPCC, there was more to come. Another claim that failed the test was that peer-reviewed scientific research had concluded that a small change in rainfall would decimate the Amazon tropical rainforests. North revealed this claim was gleaned from unsubstantiated gray literature put out by green advocacy groups. The scandal, which was published in the Sunday Times, became known as Amazongate.

    By then of course, the public trust in climate science had taken a further severe knock after the leaking of the CRU Climategate emails. These emails showed how an inner circle of climate scientists had tampered with the proxy temperature records to “hide the decline”, hidden their raw data from other scientists and statisticians and perverted the conventions of peer review.

    The Monbiot counter-attack

    Following Climategate, Glaciergate, Amazongate and North’s articles about Pachauri, Monbiot was finding it harder to sell his messianic scare stories and views to a sceptical public. The two crutches on which he had always relied to convince his fans — the conclusions of IPCC reports and peer-reviewed papers written by climate scientists — no longer worked like they had in the past.

    Certainly, someone had to be blamed.

    Monbiot saw an opportunity to strike at North after the Sunday Times withdrew the Amazongate story. He saw the retraction as a green light, writing two successive pieces at the Guardian, accusing North of “peddling inaccuracy, misrepresentation and falsehood” in the first. North only showed that things were worse — the IPCC statement had been harvested from a defunct Brazilian website. North considered Monbiot’s accusations to be libelous and lawyers were called in to sort out the mess. Monbiot had to admit he had unfairly attacked North and give him space on his column for a reply. (Dr North’s complaints about Monbiot are still awaiting adjudication by the Press Commission).

    The next opportunity arose for Monbiot when the Sunday Telegraph retracted its article and apologised for suggesting that Pachauri was corrupt. The retraction occurred after Pachauri undertook libel action against the paper. In the piece, Booker and North questioned the IPCC boss who donned several hats, working on the boards of several corporations that benefitted from business action against climate change.

    Monbiot repeated the same strategy writing two more articles attacking North for “smearing” the reputation of Dr Pachauri. Perhaps he had not paused to notice, as with Amazongate, that the retracted Telegraph article neither referred to Pachauri’s conflicts of interest nor questions raised about TERI-Europe’s accounts.

    Nevertheless for Monbiot, just as a newspaper retraction vindicated the IPCC earlier, another newspaper retraction, under threat of libel action seemed to absolve the IPCC chairman of all lapses. The caveat-laced, ‘limited review’ of Pachauri’s personal accounts in India, by a private corporation KPMG, which relied on information provided by him, seemed enough for Monbiot.

    The second of the two articles defending Pachauri was titled: “Press continue to hound Rajendra Pachauri despite his innocence”. Members of the public were quick to use the comments forum on Monbiot’s blog to challenge his portrayal of Pachauri as a man who had been smeared by Dr North. Addressing one commenter, Monbiot wrote in his own comments section:


    More than just smears

    I responded with an open letter to George Monbiot asking him to explain his position more clearly. I wanted to know why Pachauri thought VK Raina’s report was “voodoo science”. Was he simply ignorant that the 2035 date in the AR4 report was incorrect and none of his team of experts in glaciology had alerted him to the error? Was not TERI using public funding from the EU, to study the same claim? Wasn’t Monbiot bothered by this? Why did he persist in giving Pachauri the benefit of the doubt? The letter was removed soon after I posted it.

    Further comments were being deleted as well; but I was not willing to give up. I repeatedly asked for Monbiot to comment on why Pachauri made his “voodoo science” smear. I asked whether it was unreasonable to inquire if it had anything to do with TERI being funded to study the very "2035" glacier melting claim.

    Monbiot never responded. As before however, there was more to come.

    The UK Charity Commission made available TERI-Europe’s published and revised accounts. I presented them to Monbiot.
    Year
    Income as submitted before inquiries
    Corrected figures submitted after inquiries

    2006
    7,000
    16,610

    2007
    9,000
    49,878

    2008
    8,000
    103,980

    TOTAL
    24,000
    170,468


    Ritu Kumar, TERI’s director at London was compelled to revise their accounts, following the Telegraph’s inquiries into its dealings. The differences were astounding. What the new accounts showed was that, for three years running (the period shown above), TERI-Europe had grossly under-declared the income of the charity. It did not have any known subsidiaries. This was the same period TERI-Europe obtained DEFRA public funds, just for the IPCC synthesis report alone, an amount almost twice what it declared on the books.

    In the period shown, only 15% of their income had been put through the charity’s accounts and 85% of TERI-Europe’s income had simply not been included in their declared income. Their complete accounts have not been submitted to date.


    TERI-Europe Income reported to the Charity Commission UK

    Monbiot asked visitors to his Guardian thread to come up with evidence of Dr Pachauri’s unreliable bookkeeping. He must have thought this impossible. The one account unable to be veiled from public scrutiny was Pachauri’s TERI-Europe’s and that had 85% of income missing from the books until prodded. I provided Monbiot with what he asked for.

    Monbiot declared Pachauri's personal accounts and financial practices were shown by KPMG as being clean. In the light of the above however, Monbiot's unquestioning confidence in such conclusions were puzzling.

    About midday the inconvenient evidence that I provided at the Guardian forum, along with discussions of that evidence with aghast Monbiot fans were removed from the thread. The thread was closed down.

    Every single comment about the accounts was removed.

    The new Monbiot

    It was always faintly funny that the Monbiot should accuse Richard North of ‘smearing Pachauri’. We saw that Monbiot’s harmless IPCC-inspired pushing of the party line had shallow foundations that would one day be swept away by the growing awareness of the public. But we should revise that opinion. It is one thing to put forward one own points of view and cite half-truths as evidence; it is quite another to tamper with and remove facts from the public record to support an argument that does not stand up. To call for evidence and then hide is both hypocritical and paradoxical. Monbiot should be asking questions and releasing evidence, not covering it up to protect public figures like Pachauri. One wonders how long this charade will last.


    http://www.bishop-hill.net/blog/2010...ord-clean.html



    Not so much fishy as downright dishonest, methinks.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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  2. #2
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    These eco-nostra scammers got so many gates by now that there aren't enough gardens. But some people will always be absolutely terrified anyway, the APOCALYPS by CO2, forgive me for I have consumed
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-20-2010 at 14:24.

  3. #3
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    its all good, the loonier elements of the activist policy makers/propagandists are gradually being winnowed out, and sensible people are starting to have their voice heard, its all to the good.

    i'm pretty sure we'll have a good idea of what really id going on by the 2014 publication of the 5th IPCC report, now it looks like we might have some sensible policy-makers to respond to it.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    @mods
    might as well lock this thread before it gets into another 50 page who is a bigger NAZI bore
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

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  5. #5
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    @mods
    might as well lock this thread before it gets into another 50 page who is a bigger NAZI bore
    Are you predicting this thread will get heated?
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
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  6. #6
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Are you predicting this thread will get heated?
    No. Disrupted.


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  7. #7

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Basically arctic ice is already displacing volume of water (more or less) it would create when melted. Antarctic ice is not displacing any water due to it being on land. Frag asks where is this 40 meter rise coming from. Basically the ocean and antarctic ice are two separate systems, not a single one. So when antarctic ice melts, you are essentially pouring more water in the glass.

    At least that's my understanding.


  8. #8
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Pape and ACIN did a very good job explaining it just now and personal experiment is the most riveting way of approaching any such subject, yet I am a bit incredulous as to whether we are actually debating this – buoyancy is a ~2200 years old principle, gravity itself has a much shorter history in science.
    Archimedes established in On floating bodies:

    Any floating object displaces its own weight of fluid.
    Any object, wholly or partially immersed in a fluid, is buoyed up by a force equal to the weight of the fluid displaced by the object.
    Last edited by Nowake; 12-16-2011 at 06:23.


  9. #9
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Basically arctic ice is already displacing volume of water (more or less) it would create when melted. Antarctic ice is not displacing any water due to it being on land. Frag asks where is this 40 meter rise coming from. Basically the ocean and antarctic ice are two separate systems, not a single one. So when antarctic ice melts, you are essentially pouring more water in the glass.

    At least that's my understanding.
    let me know when you have found a way to have sea levels rise 40 meters, there just isn't nearly enough water for that.. it would have to rise 40m EVERYWHERE, how do you see thatto be possibl. Right, it isn't, ocean is only a few km deep

  10. #10
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Ehmmmm the current depth of the ocean is irrelevant in relation to a rise in sea levels.


    It is very easy to calculate the volume of added water.
    Antarctica holds about 90 percent of the world's ice (and 70 percent of its fresh water).
    It is covered with ice an average of 2,133 meters (7,000 feet) thick.
    If all of the Antarctic ice melted, sea levels around the world would rise about 61 meters (200 feet).


  11. #11
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Yes it was aired here. It managed to piss off even some of the skeptical scientists because it misrepresented their opinions and research. Several things were then changed later on. Don't know if we were so "lucky" to see the edited or original version.

    It was a great piece of manipulated garbage. Although it's from 2007 things have not changed much as many of the arguments are AFAIK still used http://www.durangobill.com/Swindle_Swindle.html

  12. #12
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR View Post
    Yes it was aired here. It managed to piss off even some of the skeptical scientists because it misrepresented their opinions and research. Several things were then changed later on. Don't know if we were so "lucky" to see the edited or original version.

    It was a great piece of manipulated garbage. Although it's from 2007 things have not changed much as many of the arguments are AFAIK still used http://www.durangobill.com/Swindle_Swindle.html
    Not here, here kids are dragged at their hair screaming into watching Al Gore's lies, mandatory skullfuck

  13. #13
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Was shown here too but I did not see it. From what I read the science in general is sound, but some things might have been more clear like the probability of the high rise in sea level. Either way there is no way one can say these two documentaries are equal in quality.

  14. #14
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    When was is it shown

  15. #15
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Google says July 2007 for The Great Global Warming Swindle and August same year for An Inconvenient Truth

  16. #16
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Orbital pull??

    That is why them scientists wants to find that Higgs boson (actually, how do we know such a thing exist? Oh yeah the scientists told us) as they can then control gravity and change the orbital pull.

  17. #17
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR View Post
    Orbital pull??

    That is why them scientists wants to find that Higgs boson (actually, how do we know such a thing exist? Oh yeah the scientists told us) as they can then control gravity and change the orbital pull.
    All about the money, there is a lot of money in doomsday. Global-warming is just another one. Fall for it fine, but I don't.

  18. #18
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Yes it is all about the money of course. The scientists have an eye on the more than $500 billion used globally on subsidies for fossil fuels. They also know they can't keep on convincing everyone about fusion power, which always seem to be just a few decades away (they claim)

    Luckily, as seen in Madrid the people are starting to see the truth. Just how stupid do the politicians and scientists think we are?? We want cheap and affordable fossil energy, paid by taxes.

  19. #19
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR View Post
    Yes it is all about the money of course. The scientists have an eye on the more than $500 billion used globally on subsidies for fossil fuels. They also know they can't keep on convincing everyone about fusion power, which always seem to be just a few decades away (they claim)

    Luckily, as seen in Madrid the people are starting to see the truth. Just how stupid do the politicians and scientists think we are?? We want cheap and affordable fossil energy, paid by taxes.
    It's of no use to be arguing about religion with the religious, and it really comes to that really. They need their apocalypse I can't help that.

  20. #20
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Oh it's religion AND they want your money? A bit like Scientology then.

  21. #21
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    There is something like 30 million km^3 of ice on land and maybe 30-40 thousand km^3 sea ice. Even if applying some magic à la Fragony the sea ice is not going to cancel out the land ice melting.

    It really is a waste of time arguing with Fragony about this. Either he is a very persistent troll or the poster child for the Dunning-Kruger effect. To think that the effect of melting sea ice is something to debate about...if I was religious I would pray to Jesus to make this thread go away.

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  22. #22
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    The first step in fixing the problem is assigning blame. I'd first look to coalitions that make a living lobbying to deny climate change, like the American Legislative Exchange Council for example. Whether its green house gasses or some as yet undetermined pollutant, the obvious culprits are global industrial interests, and they are the ones who should pay to adapt. Barring that, they should be forcefully replaced or dismantled, though such a thing smells enough like communism that reactionary groups will be able to push denial until we are drowning in radioactive sea water or whatever.
    What?

    Look get it straight. Fixing blame does not fix problems.

    The Global Warming crowd has lied about the cause and lied about the science. So the other side is right to point that out. So, if denial is the problem, it is the fault of those who obscured the facts.

    But you would ban speech and just swallow the lies?

    That is not going to get the answers and is not going to fix the problem.

    The warming is not the problem. The warming is not at threat levels. UV is a problem, and sunscreen is not going to fix it. In fact it may be one of the problems.

    Science has mislead us. Given us a false reason and a false fix. One they will still be happy to run with.

    Yet, you still want to silence the opposition before the issue is clarified?


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  23. #23

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Global climate change has already drained my states reservoirs. They should just start filming the next mad Max here


  24. #24
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Global climate change has already drained my states reservoirs. They should just start filming the next mad Max here
    What about desalination plants?
    http://www.cctv-america.com/2015/05/...eplenish-water

    You can probably power them with solar power even.


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  25. #25

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    All the water you need and less energy intensive than desalination:

    http://http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/watch-bill-gates-drink-water-5-minutes-after-it-was-sewage

    Get used to the "ick" factor as population continues to expand.
    Last edited by HopAlongBunny; 05-25-2015 at 22:30.
    Ja-mata TosaInu

  26. #26
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    All the water you need and less energy intensive than desalination:

    http://http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/watch-bill-gates-drink-water-5-minutes-after-it-was-sewage

    Get used to the "ick" factor as population continues to expand.
    Oh that, yes, well, you cannot tell people here that their water comes from that. I think there are also ways to get water from the air, or just settle in a place that is not a desert or at least not turned into a desert by your settling there and draining it.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  27. #27

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Recycling water from sewage is not novel. There are several such large scale facilities in California. It is a good idea however and really should be implemented everywhere from the rural to the urban.


  28. #28

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Recycling water from sewage is not novel.
    Yes, the science is solid and the water is pure.
    I await vitamin and nutrient additives for "designer water"... wait a minute...
    Ja-mata TosaInu

  29. #29
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    California wont allow it because of complaints from homeopathy believers
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  30. #30
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    I see the temperature readings have been 'adjusted'. If I did that in business it would be called fraud.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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