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Thread: Global Climate Disruption.

  1. #181
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR View Post
    And? The SO2 in the atmosphere reacts with it and becomes a weak acid.
    No it doesn't, that's a myth, it can pull some smogg like in 19th century London, acid rain simply doesn't exist. Like global warming It's pretty simple, energy companies now have to pay for emission rights, costs being forwarded to the customer, it's just covert taxation.
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-17-2011 at 14:01.

  2. #182
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    No it doesn't, that's a myth, it can pull some smogg like in 19th century London, acid rain simply doesn't exist. Like global warming It's pretty simple, energy companies now have to pay for emission rights, costs being forwarded to the customer, it's just covert taxation.
    You mean to perpetuate the myth, they falsified data, damaged/wiped out the roach population in 87% of the lakes in the worst affected areas (other fishes were less affected) and spent tons of money on lime treatment of lakes? I'm talking about the Swedish lakes here obviously.

    Did they kill more than 4000 people in 1952 in Lonodn to get the Clean Air Act as well?
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  3. #183
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Bleh double post.
    Last edited by Ironside; 09-17-2011 at 16:07.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  4. #184

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    No it doesn't, that's a myth, it can pull some smogg like in 19th century London, acid rain simply doesn't exist. Like global warming It's pretty simple, energy companies now have to pay for emission rights, costs being forwarded to the customer, it's just covert taxation.
    I'll see your post and raise your a bottle of Château Migraine.
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  5. #185
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    No it doesn't, that's a myth, it can pull some smogg like in 19th century London, acid rain simply doesn't exist. Like global warming It's pretty simple, energy companies now have to pay for emission rights, costs being forwarded to the customer, it's just covert taxation.
    No, you need it to be a myth so you can draw a direct line to global warming being a myth too. Strikes me as no different than fundamentalists who need their religious texts to be 100% true. One conspiracy theory used to explain another and then who needs facts when one already has seen the light!

  6. #186
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    You mean to perpetuate the myth, they falsified data, damaged/wiped out the roach population in 87% of the lakes in the worst affected areas (other fishes were less affected) and spent tons of money on lime treatment of lakes? I'm talking about the Swedish lakes here obviously.

    Did they kill more than 4000 people in 1952 in Lonodn to get the Clean Air Act as well?
    Just because they aren' caught doesn't mean they are gone, you jusy don't go after them. Like various planes like various altitudes fish like various depths, ask any sportfisher. How did they come back by the way
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-17-2011 at 17:16.

  7. #187
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    I'll see your post and raise your a bottle of Château Migraine.
    Seek out the emmision right scheme if headaches are your thing, not just a little bit of money. Billions. Might even set ACIN straight on why oil company's actually benefit from this
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-17-2011 at 17:25.

  8. #188

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Seek out the emmision right scheme if headaches are your thing, not just a little bit of money. Billions. Might even set ACIN straight on why oil company's actually benefit from this
    But what has that to do with the basic 2H2O + 2SO2 + O2 -> 2H2SO4 ? That reaction is the very reason why such wine has that nickname. It's a potent antioxidant.
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  9. #189
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    But what has that to do with the basic 2H2O + 2SO2 + O2 -> 2H2SO4 ? That reaction is the very reason why such wine has that nickname. It's a potent antioxidant.
    Has to do with the global warming hoax, it's all about emmision-rights. Making people absolutely terrified of CO2 is very lucrative for just about everybody, but not for us we get the bill

  10. #190
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Just because they aren' caught doesn't mean they are gone, you jusy don't go after them. Like various planes like various altitudes fish like various depths, ask any sportfisher. How did they come back by the way
    Yes, so when the sportfishers discovered that the lake acidation killed off their fishes, they started to complain. Or did you miss the part of them being one of the main driving forces of the lime treatment of lakes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    How did they come back by the way
    Reestablishment after lime treatment back to more normal pH levels is done by either improving the water ways (like bypassing water works or simular) so fish can return by itself or by pure replantation.

    And for a general comment. Do you know what the plants do nowadays with the sulphur dioxide (gotten by burning anything with sulphur in it)? Mostly they make it into sulphuric acid and sell it (as a net loss, sulphuric acid is cheap). That part and that that pure sulphur is pretty rare, should give a hint about how hard it is to get something else than sulphuric acid from sulphur. Ergo, the acid those plants produce today would been relased into the atmosphere before the regulations. And since it is thousands of tons of stuff that acts like this in concentrated form. Basic chemistry is a hoax I tell you.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Yes, I'm aware that it's the wrong acid. Concentrated sulphuric acid behaves like this, but that's because it's also dehydrating in it's strongest form.



    And who would be the profiting part of this? If you state something like emmision-rights, then show the profit trail. It should be huge fines on those who fail the SO2 regulations.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  11. #191
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    You can find it all on climategate, don't bother posting blogs as people keep asking MSM links to back it up, I can't win that fight

  12. #192
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Florescent light bulbs are actually environmentally positive. It is much more efficient than incandescent to the point where the amount of mercury that is expelled from a coal plant into the air is greater when powering an incandescent over its lifetime as compared to the amount of mercury the same coal plant expels during the lifetime of a florescent light bulb (which is longer by the way) plus the amount of mercury used to make the florescent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    But ACIN just countered that.
    No he didn't, because you don't have to use coal plants to produce electricity, also you should look into the processes used to produce the bulbs, not just the amount of Mercury.

    A little Mercury as aby-product is one thing, concentrating and refining it, and the associated processes are something else. The same with rechargable batteries, as well.

    You want to reduce humanity's impact? Cut the global population, by about half. Job done.

    We need to face up to reality here, technology helped create the environmental problem, using more complex technology which uses more heavy metals is not going to fix it. In the same vein, Nuclear Energy will not solve the energy crisis, using less energy will.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  13. #193
    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    You can find it all on climategate, don't bother posting blogs as people keep asking MSM links to back it up, I can't win that fight
    Your continued use of "climategate" weakens your credibility and argument, Fragony.

  14. #194
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post

    With Global Warning I am not saying it isn't happening, ......... , and I am not encouraged by the number of eminant physicists and mathematicians who are increasingly saying that their computor models are not reliable and therefore the conclusions drawn are not safe. That is not to say I am against environmentalism, I am in favour of it - we should leave as smaller footprints on the ground we walk as possible. I don't need apocalyptic threat to encourage me to use paper bags and insulate my home.

    Global Warming is becoming a religion, or at least a belief system - it uses fear to change people's behaviour and ostracises those who refuse to be cowed.
    Entirely agreed, and a wholly rational position to adopt.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  15. #195

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    And for a general comment. Do you know what the plants do nowadays with the sulphur dioxide (gotten by burning anything with sulphur in it)? Mostly they make it into sulphuric acid and sell it (as a net loss, sulphuric acid is cheap). That part and that that pure sulphur is pretty rare, should give a hint about how hard it is to get something else than sulphuric acid from sulphur. Ergo, the acid those plants produce today would been relased into the atmosphere before the regulations. And since it is thousands of tons of stuff that acts like this in concentrated form. Basic chemistry is a hoax I tell you.
    Another common practice is installing calcium filters and sell used filters as gypsum.
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  16. #196

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    No he didn't, because you don't have to use coal plants to produce electricity, A little Mercury as aby-product is one thing, concentrating and refining it, and the associated processes are something else. The same with rechargable batteries, as well.
    The greater efficiency gives a greater benefit in the reduction of nuclear waste that lasts 10,000+ years than the impact of the making of the bulb.
    The greater efficiency gives a greater benefit in the reduction of greenhouse gases from natural gas plants than the impact of the making of the bulb.
    The greater efficiency gives a greater benefit in the preservation of reservoirs used by hydroelectric dams (because less water is needed to generate the electricity to operate the bulb) than the impact of the making of the bulb.

    Incandescent bulbs get at most 3% efficiency while florescent are anywhere from 8-11.45% efficient. That is a big difference, which does not even include the fact that florescent last much longer, which increases the efficiency benefits of the florescent bulb. When you are talking about the typical house and the energy used for lighting, it really is much more of an environmental benefit to use some something around 3-4 times more efficient that last at least 10 to 20 times longer (which means less​ florescent bulbs have to be made compared to incandescent to fill the demand.) despite the fact that there is 5mg or so of mercury within the product.

    also you should look into the processes used to produce the bulbs, not just the amount of Mercury.
    Maybe you should post some links?

    A little Mercury as aby-product is one thing, concentrating and refining it, and the associated processes are something else. The same with rechargable batteries, as well.
    Pray tell, why should we stick to the regular disposable batteries that currently leach acid into the ground instead of using a product that can replace an entire 20-pack of disposable batteries.

    You want to reduce humanity's impact? Cut the global population, by about half. Job done.
    And this is the "freedom lovers" counter to the "environmental fascists"!?!?!

    Get the government off our backs with these regulations and just kill 3.25 billion people. Who should we kill Phillip, considering that the vast majority of the Earth's resources are being consumed by the West. Do you advocating killing off those that actually use all the resources (us)? In that case, why don't you set the example with yourself.

    Oh but I know, your idea is much more "humane". You are not talking about killing anyone, just reduce the birth rate. In which case the West is exempt since the West has had an internal population rate less than the replenish rate with immigrants filling up the gap. So now we, the West in order to save the planet must tell those Africans, Chinese and Indians that they must take these pills and stop having sex and do as we say in order to save the planet. Which would work, if they were the ones actually consuming the most...

    We need to face up to reality here, technology helped create the environmental problem, using more complex technology which uses more heavy metals is not going to fix it. In the same vein, Nuclear Energy will not solve the energy crisis, using less energy will.
    So in other words, we need to be more efficient with our energy?


  17. #197
    Member Member classical_hero's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    A. You measure the average temperature of the earth with sensors and satellites. Lots of them. And we have lots of both. All over the world.
    B. This guy is self contradicting. He is confident to say, "which (if true) means to me is that the temperature has been amazingly stable,"

    Then in the same article linked is quoted to have said, "We don't really know what the actual effect on the global temperature is."

    This is a joke. And I always laugh when I come in here and see the circlejerk when you get to pull out one dissenter every 2 months or so and get to claim how much of a fool the 98% consensus is among scientists.

    Obviously every scientist is paid off by the gutmensch and this mysterious force paying them off is bigger and more powerful than the oil and gas companies who regularly supply politicians with hundreds of thousands of dollars while this mysterious, worldwide "green conspiracy" seems to have dropped the ball on paying off the people who actually make policies, considering that only one GOP candidate was willing to say that global warming is man made.

    And .8 of a degree Celcius is actually a big deal on a global scale. It just shows how small minded those are who believe the Earth's ecosystem is some big sturdy force of nature that can't be so tainted by us humans, only the sun can influence something like the earth. Rocks that are just 10-15km wide can and have helped an extermination of the entire planet but billions of tons of carbon dioxide is nothing right?
    So consensus makes the science right? DO you realise how laughable that statement is? Some of the best science we have seen is all about challenging the status quo. It does not make it right if the majority agrees, since plenty of things in the past have been overturned, It was once believed that stress and other things cause ulcers. It was one scientific fact that blacks were less evolved than whites. It was once scientific fact that the sun revolves around the earth.

    Have a read of this. http://www.osta.com/gw/GWanalysis.htm
    1.0Has there been a GW trend in the recent past?

    Yes, a warming trend appears to have occurred over the last 130 years or so, from about 1880 AD on. The increase in average global temperature over this period appears to have been about 0.7 degrees Centigrade. Not all scientists agree on the magnitude of the increase in average global temperature, nor do they agree on the magnitude or direction of the change in average temperature predicted for the 21st century. Here are the highlights of my findings on why there are still differences of scientific opinion on this:

    1. The temperature measurements used by the IPCC have been largely based on temperature gauges located on land.
    2. Most temperature gauges were located in the northern hemisphere.
    3. The predominance of temperature gauges in urban areas has biased average worldwide temperatures higher than they actually were.
    4. Temperature measurements by satellite do not agree with those taken by temperature measurements taken by temperature gauges on land.
    5. Global data from satellites does not show a GW trend since 2001, even though atmospheric CO2 concentration has been increasing.
    6. Satellite temperature measurements were initially not considered by the IPCC.
    7. The U.S average temperature has trended upward at about 0.5 degrees C per century over the last 130 years or so. This has included both GW and GC periods, each lasting approximately 30 years.
    8. The earth has experienced GW and GC periods in the last few thousand years.
    9. GW did occur in a medieval warm period from about 800 to 1200 AD, a period during which temperatures were higher than they are today.
    10. A little ice age occurred from about 1300 to 1880 AD.
    11. The amount of CO2 in the atmosphere has increased by about 30% since 1880.
    12. The amount of methane in the atmosphere has also increased in this period.
    13. Using CO2 “equivalency units” all GH gases have increased by about 60% in the period since 1880.
    14. IPCC predicts a warming of 0.2 degrees centigrade per decade for the next two decades based on its climate models. However, this assumes that GW increases will continue near current rates and that global cooling (GC) will not occur.
    15. There is no scientific consensus on the magnitude of temperature rise dependence on an increase in GH gases.
    16. We are now (2008) apparently entering a GC cycle that is expected to last for 15 to 25 years, based on Dilley’s gravitational models [see below.]
    17. The Monckton report indicates that even though CO2 concentration is increasing, the average global temperature is not increasing proportionally.
    18. IPCC’s 4th assessment report published in 2007 has lowered the projections for the GW temperature increase and sea level rise of the earlier IPCC reports.


    IPCC’s projection for GW in the future is based on its climate models and assumes that the GW trend of the last 25 to 30 years will continue. The IPCC projection is at variance with projections made by the NIPCC, Easterbrook, Dilley [see below], and others.
    2.0Is GW due to anthropogenic causes, e.g. CO2?

    One of the key questions in the GW discussion is that of the cause of GW. It is agreed that the existence of GH gases in the atmosphere has some impact on the average global temperature. But the overriding question is – is GW anthropogenic (caused by man) or is GW controlled by natural causes? Is and will GW be harmful? Here are the highlights of my findings on this question:

    1. The “general consensus” is that the production of CO2 by humans burning fossil fuel is the main cause for the earth’s current (the last ~150 years) GW.
    2. IPCC considers the following GH gases – carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, CFC, hydrofluorocarbons, perfluorocarbons, and sulfur hexafluoride.
    3. IPCC does not consider water vapor to be a GH gas, but the NIPCC report does.
    4. There is a disagreement among climate scientists over whether water vapor should be a dependent variable or an independent variable in climate models.
    5. NIPCC has shown that the distribution of water vapor in the atmosphere can produce strong negative feedback effects on global temperature.
    6. Water vapor in the atmosphere holds 93 times more atmospheric heat than the CO2 does.
    7. IPCC does admit that water vapor and cloud cover are sources of uncertainty in the impact on climate change.
    8. There are so many sources and sinks of CO2 that it is difficult to determine with any accuracy how much of the atmospheric CO2 concentration is due to anthropogenic GH emissions.
    9. Many climatologists consider that GH gases are comprised of a) 95% water vapor, b) 4.7% ocean biologic, volcanos, plant/animal activity, and c) 0.3% human additions such as CO2.
    10. The IPCC climate model considers CO2 to be the major driver of climate change, but it does not consider solar irradiation as a significant cause of climate change.
    11. Studies by Arthur Robinson, et. al. have shown that computer model uncertainties in ocean surface flux, north-south heat flux by motions, humidity and clouds are far greater than any CO2 effects [see below.]
    12. Most of the CO2 in the atmosphere is produced by natural, not manmade, causes.
    13. CO2 in the atmosphere has increased during most of the 20th century at a fairly constant rate. However, we had a period of GC from 1940 to 1975 (even while CO2 concentrations increased) as well as a GW period from 1975 to the early part of this century.
    14. High concentrations of CO2 have been detected in the distant past without any apparent ill effects. This did not have an anthropogenic cause.
    15. In the past CO2 cycles have always happened in response to natural temperature cycles, even when man was not a factor in producing CO2.
    16. Global temperatures rose for a hundred years (~ 0.5 degrees C) before significant CO2 use by humans. There has been a steady increase in the use of CO2 by humans over the last 150 years, time that included warming periods (e.g. 1910-1940, 1972-2000) as well as a significant cooling period (e.g. 1940-1972).
    17. World glaciers have been retreating at a fairly steady rate for the past 200 years, well before the significant increased use of hydrocarbons by man.
    18. There has been a 7 inches per century sea level rise over the last 150 years, starting well before the significant increase in use of hydrocarbons by man.
    19. Past IPCC climate models based on anthropogenic causes for GW have not done a good job of predicting global temperatures.


    The case made by the IPCC that GW is largely due to anthropogenic causes does not have wide support outside of the IPCC committee. It does not appear that human hydrocarbon use is causing significant increasing global termperatures.
    3.0Is GW due to natural causes?

    A number of independent studies by climate scientists have shown that GW is due to natural causes. Climatologists have identified at least the following natural causes – variations in solar output, variations in the earth’s orbital characteristics and tilt, volcanic eruptions, atmosphere/ocean heat exchange, and the moon’s gravitational cycles. Here are the highlights of some of these studies. The details of these studies can be found in the references listed at the end of this report.
    1.The NIPCC report has concluded that climate change (GW and GC) may best be explained by natural causes due to the complex interactions between the atmosphere and oceans, and perhaps stimulated by variations of solar irradiation.
    2.NIPCC has determined that internal oscillations such as North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO), Atlantic Multi-Decadal Oscillation (AMO), Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO), and the El Nino-Southern Oscillation (ENSO) play a major role in climate change. These oscillations are identified as internal oscillations of the atmosphere-ocean system by the IPCC.
    3.The orbital influences on climate are well documented and widely accepted, but apparently not considered by the IPCC.
    4.The sun has been shown to be a much more important climate driver than the concentration of atmospheric CO2.
    5.Studies by Baliunas and Jastrow, and Friis-Christensen and Lassen, have shown that solar activity indicates a strong correlation with global temperatures. The solar activity includes sunspot cycle length, changes of solar ultraviolet or of the solar wind and its magnetic effect on cosmic rays and thus on cloud coverage.
    6.Some solar physicists have suggested that the sun could have caused more than two thirds of observed GW in the past.
    7.Solar activity is expected to decline for the next 50 years, resulting in GC.
    8.A study by Easterbrook in 2008 has shown a strong correlation between the Glacial Decadal Oscillation (GDO) and the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO), the warming and cooling of the Pacific Ocean, and global temperature records. In a similar manner the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) shows that we are entering a cooling period. These correlations are unrelated to atmospheric CO2 concentrations.
    9.Studies have shown a connection between PDO and cloud variations.
    10.Easterbrook’s climate model matches the alternate 27-year warming/cooling cycles since about 1470, and predicted the cooling cycle that we are now entering. The IPCC climate model predicted increasing temperatures looking forward in time.
    11.Easterbrook’s climate model indicates that global climate changes correlate well with a) changes in solar irradiance, b) number of sunspots and sunspot cycle length, and c) production of BE10 and C14 in the atmosphere from radiation.
    12.According to Easterbrook’s studies, there appears to be “no correlation between CO2 and GW in the past. Half of the warming in the past century occurred before CO2 began to rise sharply. For 30 years after CO2 began to soar, GC occurred, rather than GW. Of the 25 past periods of GW, only the last one (the past 30 years) corresponds to rising CO2. 96% of GW periods in the past 500 years have no correlation with CO2.”
    13.Meteorologist Dilley has determined that there is a very significant link between GW and the moon’s recurring gravitational cycles. They also apparently explain the cooling cycle that we are now entering.
    14.Dilley has identified the gravitational cycles as the Primary Forcing Mechanism (PFM) for Climate.
    15.Dilley has also determined that the moon’s natural cycles explain the 50% increase in CO2 seen in the last 150 years, as well as over the past several thousands f years.
    16.Dilley has determined that the magnitude of the current GW/CO2 cycle is due to the fact that the earth is presently at the peak of seven Primary Forcing Mechanism (PFM) cycles (caused by the moon’s gravitational cycles), and not due to man-made CO2 emissions since the mid 19th century.
    17.Dilley’s model has about a 90% correlation with the average temperature data.
    18.The “effect of sun irradiation on the ocean” model has about a 70% correlation with the average temperature data.
    19.The assumption of GW caused by man-made CO2 has only about a 25% correlation with the average temperature data.

    We must remember that warming does not tell us the cause of the warming, and that correlation does not necessarily indicate causation. However, we should pay attention to strong correlations that agree with postulated climate models. The natural causes of GW postulated by climate scientists need to be considered by the IPCC.
    4.0Do we need to do something about GW immediately?

    The science behind GW and GC cycles is still in a state of flux. The debate is not settled. Thus it is too early to recommend a “solution” to address the driving functions behind climate changes. Here are some reasons why the science is not yet considered settled and why a solution to the perceived GW problem should not be implemented hastily:

    1. There is nothing unusual about the recent warming period when compared with historical periods of warming. GW and GC periods have occurred throughout the last few thousands of years with more extreme temperature changes than we have measured today.
    2. The last GC period ending in the 1970’s resulted in a GC scare.
    3. The IPCC study involved 52 scientists, not all of them climate scientists. The final IPCC reports were written by consensus among UN policy makers from many different countries, sometimes publishing results that were not approved by the IPCC scientists involved in the climate studies.
    4. The NIPCC report expresses significant variances from the IPCC report.
    5. More than 700 international scientists have expressed dissent in the U.S. Senate Minority Report over the man-made GW claims made in the IPCC report.
    6. More than 31,000 scientists have signed a GW Petition that expresses strong disagreement with the conclusions drawn in the final IPCC report.
    7. Meteorologist Dilley has put out a report based on 19 years of investigation that identifies the natural driving functions responsible for climate changes.
    8. Dilley’s models predict GC from 2008 to 2014, again from 2020 to 2025, with the coldest point being reached in 2050.
    9. Grant money to fund climate studies has overwhelmingly been made available to groups that are sympathetic to anthropogenic causes (e.g. burning of fossil fuels) for GW.
    10. A number of developed nations agreed to reduce CO2 emissions by a certain percentage according to the Kyoto Protocol adopted in 1997. None of these nations came anywhere close to meeting their goals. More aggressive goals are not likely to be met in the future.
    11. If the Kyoto Protocol were implemented and successful, GW would only be reduced by 0.07 degrees C by 2050.
    12. There is no scientific consensus that somewhat larger concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere are harmful. Some researchers have shown that increased CO2 has been beneficial for agriculture and to have economic benefits.
    13. Major discrepancies still exist between temperature measurements and computer climate change models. Existing climate change models do not explain many climate observations.
    14. The IPCC’s past predictions for future catastrophic consequences of GW have not come to pass since the IPCC climate models were inadequate.
    15. The IPCC’s prediction of a large temperature increase by the year 2100 is not based on credible climate models.
    16. Al Gore has hijacked the good work of IPCC scientists and become an alarmist when it comes to GW. His movie “An Inconvenient Truth” has received wide publicity, but it has been shown to contain falsehoods. In October 2007 the High Court in London identified nine significant “errors” in his movie. Lord Christopher Monckton also wrote a paper pointing out “35 Inconvenient Truths” (errors and exaggerations) in Gore’s movie. The movie has done a great disservice to getting the truth out about the extent and causes of GW and the likely impacts that we can expect in the future.
    17. Al Gore has declared the GW debate over. This is a red flag when it comes to good science. If the debate were indeed over, Gore would be willing to debate protagonists, be able to articulate the causes for GW, and achieve general agreement from a majority of climate scientists – this has not happened.
    18. We do not understand the costs of implementing the “consensus” GW solution. When asked to address this issue, Al Gore refuses. It is imperative that the economic costs of any solution be addressed and understood.
    19. A recent poll indicates that GW ranks only 20th in a list of 20 major issues when prioritized by participants in the poll.


    The IPCC report recommends a solution that assumes that GW is primarily due to anthropogenic causes, especially the emission of CO2. In contradiction, the NIPCC report concludes that there is no convincing evidence or observations of significant GW from other than natural causes. It appears the IPCC committee did not adequately consider the “second opinion” put forth by climate scientists outside of the IPCC “peer group” in drawing their conclusions and making their recommendations.

    The recommended IPCC “consensus” GW solution involves:

    1. Reducing CO2 emissions by 80% by the year 2050.
    2. Establishing a cap-and-trade system to regulate conformance to the goals.


    A number of analyses have been performed by different scientific groups to determine the probable causes of climate change, both anthropogenic and natural. We need to consider all of these analyses before drawing conclusions and determining what the best solution is for controlling the emission of GH gases, if indeed that is required. Implementing a solution for the perceived problem of GW before there is a strong consensus on the cause(s) of GW can do more harm than good.
    5.0Is the “consensus” GW solution based on good science?

    It is my understanding the IPCC reports were put together by 52 or more scientists plus additional policy makers selected from UN member countries. The final versions of the IPCC reports were edited by UN policy makers who apparently did not seek approval for technical changes from the scientists who provided the information for the reports. Some of these UN scientists have since disassociated themselves from the final reports and asked their names to be removed from these reports. The resulting IPCC reports have apparently not received wide support from the climate science community for the following reasons:
    1.The climate model used by the IPCC assumes that man-made CO2 is the primary cause of GW.
    2.The IPCC reports lack the approval of some of the IPCC scientists who provided input for them, nor did they include minority reports to outline the areas of disagreement.
    3.NIPCC input was not adequately considered or rebutted. NIPCC concluded that GW is controlled by natural causes and that GH gases do not play a significant role in GW.
    4.Satellite data was not adequately considered in measuring average global temperatures.
    5.Solar irradiation was not considered as a cause of climate change.
    6.Various well-known long-term and short-term gravitational cycles controlled by the orbits of the moon were not considered as a cause of climate change.
    7.The “hockey-stick” graph included in early IPCC reports was based on an inaccurate climate model. The publication and subsequent withdrawal of this graph did not help the credibility of the IPCC.
    8.The IPCC reports appear to be designed to show support for anthropogenic GW, and finding evidence of a human role in climate change, without scientific rebuttal to data that show otherwise.

    1. The NIPCC report expresses significant variances from the IPCC report.

    10.More than 700 international scientists have refuted the last IPCC report in the U.S. Senate Minority Report.
    11.Dissent about the IPCC reports and the resulting Kyoto Protocol are expressed by more than 31,000 scientists who signed a GW Petition put out by the Oregon Institute for Science and Medicine.
    12.The IPCC reports are apparently driven by a political agenda to find evidence for human causes for climate change.
    13.Peer review has apparently been done by a select group of like-minded peers.
    14.IPCC appears to be organized as “a government entity beholden to political agendas.”
    15.Research grants have apparently predominantly gone to scientists and policy makers who are willing to support IPCC’s agenda.
    16.Many IPCC reports have been controversial and their conclusions contradicted by subsequent research.
    17.Most studies by climate scientists show that atmospheric man-made CO2 is not a significant cause of GW.
    18.Reducing emissions of some GH gases to control pollution is important, but many climate scientists do not believe that this will not have a significant impact on the global climate.
    19.Environmentalists have warned of a potential for a global catastrophe in the late 1970’s based on the GC that was occurring in the previous 25-30 years. This did not occur.

    Climate scientists need to reach a much higher degree of consensus on the cause(s) of GW before the science underlying GW can be considered settled. For example, further analysis is required to determine the impact of GH gases such as water vapor on the global climate.
    6.0Who is hurt by the “consensus” GW solution?

    There is no such thing as a “free lunch.” The current recommended solution is so expensive for so little gain that it will significantly increase the cost of all energy products. This will impact the following:

    1. The poor – Poor people can barely afford the cost of fuel today. An added cap-and-trade tax will increase the cost of fuel beyond their ability to pay.
    2. Energy consumers – All energy consumers would pay extra for the additional costs of uneconomical energy solutions whose use would be mandated by government regulation.
    3. Third world countries – Many countries in Africa are currently not allowed to build electrical plants, especially those using coal as a fuel source, because of the impact on the environment. Extra taxes will make it impossible for them to better their economic situation.
    4. Developed nations (and their citizens) who sign up for limiting CO2 emissions would likely experience slower economic growth and lose their competitive edge in the short term. This would likely result in certain industries and/or jobs moving off shore. The prosperity of these nations would suffer.
    5. Oil exporting countries would pay higher taxes under any cap-and-trade program.
    6. The world economic growth rate would likely be slower under any ill-conceived GW programs.
    7. The political backlash from an ill-conceived GW program would be immense and result in undermining any public support that a sound GW program might have.

    7.0What conclusions can we draw from the analysis?

    As the result of my reading and analysis, the major conclusions that I draw from my analysis of the issue are as follows:
    1.The extent of the GW phenomena does not appear to be as great as has been presented to the public by the IPCC and the popular media.
    2.The number of dissenting climate scientists is greater, by at least an order of magnitude, than the number of climate scientists who have contributed to the IPCC report. The number of dissenters is far too large to ignore.
    3.The IPCC seems to have focused on the last 25 to 30 years during which a GW cycle has been observed. IPCC appears to have based its predictions of increased GW for the next century on the continuation of the recent GW trend, and ignoring prior trends in global temperatures, both warming and cooling.
    4.Many climate scientists have determined that we are now entering a 25 to 30 year GC period, and not a period of GW.
    5.The science behind GW is not well understood and is far from settled.
    6.The economic and people costs of any proposed GW solution are not well researched or understood.
    7.GW appears to be largely due to natural causes, with possibly minor contributions from man-made causes.
    8.Technical contributions from hundreds of climate scientists outside of the IPCC have not been adequately considered by the IPCC in determining the extent or causes of GW.
    9.Any extensive and costly action to control GW is premature because of significantly different opinions offered by different groups of climate scientists.
    10.Deception, the unbalanced use of scientific data, and exaggeration by certain policy makers and politicians have damaged the credibility of the good work done by IPCC scientists.
    11.Climate scientists need to regroup and be more inclusive of research done by climate scientists with opposing viewpoints in order to develop a true scientific consensus on the extent and cause(s) of GW.
    8.0What should the GW community do next?

    We need to recognize that the global climate is constantly changing; it always has and it always will. There are many open questions for which climate scientists do not yet have good answers. Here are my suggestions:

    1. Recognize that the science of climate change is far from settled and that the scientific debate that can lead to better consensus is not over.
    2. Separate the issue of pollution from that of GW. Most scientists agree on the major contributors to pollution and the need to control the emission of those pollutants.
    3. Separate the green/renewable energy issue from that of GW. We need to promote green energy solutions (such as solar, wind, tidal, and geothermal) if and as they become economically viable anyway. That is just being a good steward of the earth’s resources.
    4. There is no agreement yet on what the key drivers behind GW are, and whether there is a need to control these drivers, i.e. are man-made causes significant enough contributors to warrant costly remedial programs at this time?
    5. Develop a list of significant open issues in the field of climatology that need to be resolved in order to develop a true “consensus” GW solution, if indeed a solution is required. This will benefit the research funding agencies.
    6. Include both IPCC and NIPCC scientists in the “peer group” of climate scientists so that all scientific analyses and results are adequately considered.
    7. Provide grants/funds for climate researchers with opposing viewpoints.
    8. Develop credible climate models that accurately reflect the temperature measurements over the last few hundred years so that predictions of future climate changes have much greater credibility.
    9. Perform a cost benefit analysis of any proposed solution.
    10. Use common sense and take politics out of the determination of optimum climate change programs, if any should be required.

  18. #198

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by hero di classico View Post
    So consensus makes the science right? DO you realise how laughable that statement is? Some of the best science we have seen is all about challenging the status quo. It does not make it right if the majority agrees, since plenty of things in the past have been overturned, It was once believed that stress and other things cause ulcers. It was one scientific fact that blacks were less evolved than whites. It was once scientific fact that the sun revolves around the earth.
    Consensus is what we must base our decisions on. There will always be scientists that disagree with the most basic scientific premises. There are biologist who genuinely think and have "data" to support intelligent design instead of the theory of evolution. Are we to not trust the scientists that fight to keep evolution in and I.D. out of the classroom?

    This is an example of people taking a premise of how science should operate and trying to use it in the context of how science should be applied through policy. No one wants to silence the climate doubters or stop them from bringing up evidence that suggests otherwise (cue Fragony bringing up ClimateGate again). But no one wants to have the lone outsiders dictate what should be done or even have ourselves stagnate and not make a decision because there will always be that 2% of PhD holders that will claim that the Flat Earth Society is correct after all.

    Science is always open to different opinions, how we should tackle a problem that even climate deniers now recognize (the fact that the Earth is indeed heating up for some reason) must be based upon what the consensus of the scientific community is, otherwise the answer to any given problem is to do nothing until that magical 100% agreement is achieved (AKA never).
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 09-18-2011 at 22:35.


  19. #199

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    The greater efficiency gives a greater benefit in the reduction of nuclear waste that lasts 10,000+ years than the impact of the making of the bulb.
    The greater efficiency gives a greater benefit in the reduction of greenhouse gases from natural gas plants than the impact of the making of the bulb.
    The greater efficiency gives a greater benefit in the preservation of reservoirs used by hydroelectric dams (because less water is needed to generate the electricity to operate the bulb) than the impact of the making of the bulb.

    Incandescent bulbs get at most 3% efficiency while florescent are anywhere from 8-11.45% efficient. That is a big difference, which does not even include the fact that florescent last much longer, which increases the efficiency benefits of the florescent bulb. When you are talking about the typical house and the energy used for lighting, it really is much more of an environmental benefit to use some something around 3-4 times more efficient that last at least 10 to 20 times longer (which means less​ florescent bulbs have to be made compared to incandescent to fill the demand.) despite the fact that there is 5mg or so of mercury within the product.


    Maybe you should post some links?


    Pray tell, why should we stick to the regular disposable batteries that currently leach acid into the ground instead of using a product that can replace an entire 20-pack of disposable batteries.


    And this is the "freedom lovers" counter to the "environmental fascists"!?!?!

    Get the government off our backs with these regulations and just kill 3.25 billion people. Who should we kill Phillip, considering that the vast majority of the Earth's resources are being consumed by the West. Do you advocating killing off those that actually use all the resources (us)? In that case, why don't you set the example with yourself.

    Oh but I know, your idea is much more "humane". You are not talking about killing anyone, just reduce the birth rate. In which case the West is exempt since the West has had an internal population rate less than the replenish rate with immigrants filling up the gap. So now we, the West in order to save the planet must tell those Africans, Chinese and Indians that they must take these pills and stop having sex and do as we say in order to save the planet. Which would work, if they were the ones actually consuming the most...



    So in other words, we need to be more efficient with our energy?

    Using more efficient light bulbs doesn't actually affect the quantity of nuclear waste produced.

    The Chinese use plenty of energy. And it's only increasing. This line is particularly ironic:
    So now we, the West in order to save the planet must tell those Africans, Chinese and Indians that they must take these pills and stop having sex and do as we say in order to save the planet.
    India will probably overtake China as the most populous country in the world in the next two decades.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  20. #200

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Using more efficient light bulbs doesn't actually affect the quantity of nuclear waste produced.
    I am not an expert on nuclear power plants. If less energy is needed, why does the plant still produce the same amount of waste?

    The Chinese use plenty of energy. And it's only increasing. This line is particularly ironic: India will probably overtake China as the most populous country in the world in the next two decades.
    Because they are becoming Westernized in their lifestyle.

    I don't see how the line is ironic. China, Africa and India all have large populations or large birth rates. Explain how it detracts from my point.


  21. #201

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Neither am I, but I figure that even if every incandescent bulb is replaced with a fluorescent one, we won't suddenly have to shut down reactors on weekends. There won't be a glut of unused power, that is.

    Ironic in terms of the bolded words.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  22. #202

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Neither am I, but I figure that even if every incandescent bulb is replaced with a fluorescent one, we won't suddenly have to shut down reactors on weekends. There won't be a glut of unused power, that is.
    My limited understanding of nuclear reactors is that if less energy is needed, the rate of fission within the reactor is slowed down and the amount of waste being produced in a given amount of time is reduced as well.

    Ironic in terms of the bolded words.
    Ahh, I see now.


  23. #203
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    And this is the "freedom lovers" counter to the "environmental fascists"!?!?!

    Get the government off our backs with these regulations and just kill 3.25 billion people. Who should we kill Phillip, considering that the vast majority of the Earth's resources are being consumed by the West. Do you advocating killing off those that actually use all the resources (us)? In that case, why don't you set the example with yourself.

    Oh but I know, your idea is much more "humane". You are not talking about killing anyone, just reduce the birth rate. In which case the West is exempt since the West has had an internal population rate less than the replenish rate with immigrants filling up the gap. So now we, the West in order to save the planet must tell those Africans, Chinese and Indians that they must take these pills and stop having sex and do as we say in order to save the planet. Which would work, if they were the ones actually consuming the most...



    So in other words, we need to be more efficient with our energy?
    That's a good troll there ACIN, have +1 Internets.

    Except:

    I don't "love Freedom" and I'm more than happy for the Population of England to drop by 1/3 and to outlaw carrier bags and plastic cups.

    You're also not entirely correct about us consuming more, because the developing world produce a lot of the stuff we throw away, and in any case consumerism is a way to prop up out economies so that we can generate wealth faster than the more populous developing world (that chicken has, of course, not come home to roost).
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  24. #204

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Sure - if the reactor operator is trying to keep energy prices at a certain level by curtailing the energy supply...
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  25. #205

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    That's a good troll there ACIN, have +1 Internets.

    Except:

    I don't "love Freedom" and I'm more than happy for the Population of England to drop by 1/3 and to outlaw carrier bags and plastic cups.

    You're also not entirely correct about us consuming more, because the developing world produce a lot of the stuff we throw away, and in any case consumerism is a way to prop up out economies so that we can generate wealth faster than the more populous developing world (that chicken has, of course, not come home to roost).
    How would you like the population to decline by 1/3? My underlying point was that any attempt at reducing population is worse than simply forcing people to buy more efficient appliances.

    They produce a lot, but don't consume anywhere near the same level as we do (except for China which is getting there). I once heard a statistic that the US at one point was using 20-25% of the world's oil even though our population is nowhere near that percentage of the global population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Sure - if the reactor operator is trying to keep energy prices at a certain level by curtailing the energy supply...
    Well now you have just brought up all the rage I had after seeing, "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room". Nevertheless, that kind of stuff isn't a given.


  26. #206
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    "Global warming has become a new religion. We frequently hear about the number of scientists who support it. But the number is not important: only whether they are correct is important. We don't really know what the actual effect on the global temperature is. There are better ways to spend the money."
    ^ Word! ^

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/env...n-protest.html
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  27. #207
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    But we do know, last 100 years global temperature rised 0.2 degrees celcius. That's the problem with alarmists, as you can't just decide the earth is warming up, it has to be real otherwise it isn't true. God doesn't exist, and the earth isn't warming up.

    '"I am Norwegian, should I really worry about a little bit of warming?" he said. "I am unfortunately becoming an old man. We have heard many similar warnings about the acid rain 30 years ago and the ozone hole 10 years ago or deforestation but the humanity is still around.'

    I like him, just wondering why we are all going to die next round, if we do not act right now
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-25-2011 at 12:52.

  28. #208
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Ivar Giaever has also said
    ...so I don't claim to know much about the global warming really, but I looked at Google...
    But at least he is one of them noble scientists so he knows what he is talking about!

  29. #209

    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Acid rain and the ozone problem were both solved by governments taking action in the face of an overwhelming scientific community.

    The ozone hole is still there, but is now declining in size, not to be fully repaired until ~2050. This is because of world wide action against CFC's being used. This is all not debatable.


  30. #210
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Climate Disruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Acid rain and the ozone problem were both solved by governments taking action in the face of an overwhelming scientific community.

    The ozone hole is still there, but is now declining in size, not to be fully repaired until ~2050. This is because of world wide action against CFC's being used. This is all not debatable.
    Yes it really is

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