Results 1 to 30 of 87

Thread: What would be different if there was no police

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Between the Mountain and the Sound
    Posts
    11,074
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: What would be different if there was no police

    Maybe someone could tell me how private police officers would have made this story worse:
    Exposing DEA agent costs KCK police detective his job

    By JOE LAMBE

    The Kansas City Star

    Max Seifert shot men who tried to kill him and helped solve one of the area’s most horrific animal abuse cases.

    But a federal judge says the case that cost the Kansas City, Kan., detective the most was his honest investigation of a road rage attack by a federal agent.

    Seifert exposed the truth about a man who was beaten and charged with a crime after he wouldn’t let an unmarked car pass him on the right.

    For crossing “the thin blue line,” U.S. District Judge Julie Robinson wrote, Seifert was forced into retirement.

    “Seifert was shunned, subjected to gossip and defamation by his police colleagues and treated as a pariah,” Robinson wrote. “… The way Seifert was treated was shameful.”

    Before Seifert started working on the beating case, she wrote, evaluations noted his “diligence and dedication.” He’d won commendations for shooting an armed man and freeing two hostages, and for shooting a man who tried to run him down with a pickup truck.

    But none of that saved him from being forced out, the judge wrote.

    Seifert never sued anybody.

    His case might never have come to light if Robinson hadn’t mentioned his ouster from the Police Department in her recent ruling that awarded Barron Bowling, the federal agent’s beating victim, more than $830,000 for assault, battery and excessive force.

    While Bowling found justice, Seifert lost part of his pension and health insurance when he was forced to leave his career early.

    “That’s why he’s still working,” his wife, Mary Ann, said last week.

    Seifert’s troubles began seven years ago after Drug Enforcement Administration agent Timothy McCue tried to pass Bowling on the right in a wide lane. Bowling sped up and the cars collided.

    Bowling drove forward before he pulled over so he wouldn’t block traffic, the judge wrote. That’s when McCue, gun out, rushed him. Bowling was beaten unconscious by McCue and then taken to jail.

    The case ended with the recent order for the U.S. government to pay Bowling for McCue’s actions, but a previous ruling outlined allegations against the Kansas City, Kan., Police Department.

    The Unified Government of Wyandotte County and Kansas City, Kan., settled its part of the case last year for $425,000 but admitted no liability on conspiracy, malicious prosecution or abuse of process.

    Before that settlement, the judge issued the pretrial ruling that described how Seifert was pressured to play along with a cover-up that started soon after the crash. Officers at the crash scene failed to report or photograph Bowling’s injuries or report what witnesses said, the judge wrote.

    Instead, Police Officer Robert Lane told Bowling he was going to jail because DEA agents “do pretty much whatever they want,” the judge wrote.

    Bowling was accused of assaulting DEA agents by intentionally causing the crash, and Lane ordered a reporting officer to omit the evidence of the beating and witnesses’ statements, Robinson wrote.

    After Seifert spoke to Bowling in jail, though, the detective told a boss that internal affairs should take the case instead. Seifert got it anyway and called Lane to ask why there were no witness reports.

    “It would look bad for DEA agents,” Lane replied, according to the judge’s report, adding that police “should cover for them.”

    Seifert still proceeded to record interviews with three witnesses who confirmed the beating, but the judge later noted that the tape mysteriously disappeared after Seifert turned it over to superiors.

    Deputy Chief Steven Culp told Seifert he should investigate only the alleged car assault on McCue, the judge wrote, not the accusation of beating.

    Seifert finished his investigation and submitted it to prosecutors. They declined to charge Bowling.

    But Culp — who discussed the case over golf with a special agent in charge at the DEA — later gave the prosecutor more statements from the DEA agents and urged charges, the judge stated.

    The prosecutor ended up charging Bowling with felony criminal damage to property and the misdemeanors of leaving the scene of an accident and possessing drug paraphernalia, a marijuana pipe.

    Throughout the case, Culp and Maj. Dennis Ware managed it for police, the judge wrote. Police Chief Ronald Miller got updates from them but was not directly involved.

    In a sworn statement for Bowling’s civil case, Seifert said his bosses managed a cover-up.

    “I’ve never seen Col. Culp walk into my office and take such an interest in a case. … I’ve never been paid visits by Maj. Ware like they were.”

    In the end, the judge said, the criminal case was based on McCue’s false statement that Bowling intentionally hit the DEA car, when McCue was the one who had tried to force his way into traffic.

    Seifert testified for the defense at Bowling’s criminal trial, where jurors found the man not guilty of the felony, but convicted him on the misdemeanors.

    But to police, the judge said, the detective was guilty.

    Seifert said in the sworn statement, taken shortly before his retirement, that police started an internal affairs investigation of him and Miller made it clear he was unhappy with him.

    Miller told him that he alone would determine whether Seifert got a reserve commission to do police work after he retired, Seifert said, which is something that officers typically rely on. He didn’t get it.

    Seifert, 60, and his wife still live in Kansas City, Kan. His wife said he was forced to retire less than a year before he would have been fully vested. That meant the detective who helped solve the 1997 torture and killing of Scruffy the dog — whose case led to “Scruffy’s Law” — lost health insurance and 2.5 percent off his pension, she said.

    Jody Boeding, chief counsel for the Unified Government, said the government “respectfully disagrees with Judge Robinson’s conclusions about the actions of the police commanders” and believes they acted appropriately.

    Miller has left the force and is now the police chief in Topeka. He did not return phone calls.

    As for Lane, he became an Edwardsville councilman. He left the Police Department in 2007 after he pleaded no contest to four misdemeanors associated with a drunken-driving ticket-fixing scheme. He was sentenced to 10 days in jail and probation and is no longer on the council. He could not be reached for comment.

    Culp is now the executive director of the Kansas Commission on Peace Officers’ Standards and Training. He declined to comment on details of the judicial rulings, which he said he had not read.

    Ware has retired from the force and now works for the police in a civilian capacity. He did not reply to an e-mail request for comment.

    Kansas City, Kan., Police Chief Rick Armstrong said the judge’s depiction of the case does not reflect past or current attitudes in the Police Department.

    “This Police Department vigorously investigates allegations of misconduct,” he said.

    Wyandotte County prosecutors declined to comment.

    McCue is still a DEA agent, a spokesperson said. The DEA and federal attorneys representing the agency declined comment. They said they are still studying the ruling.
    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  2. #2
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    25,830

    Default Re: What would be different if there was no police

    Personally I think we should abolish all current government regarding the law and have everything decided by me personally. Armed, untrained, macho vigilantes working purely for the adrenaline rush (and a drum of various mind-altering drugs) will bring me all sorts of offenders who will have no rights that need to be read, and I will personally decree that all the lawyers will now and forever be forced to dress as clowns and perform tricks at children's parties. I will shred the current body of laws in an actual shredding machine. The law will be whatever I had to say on the matter the last time I offered my opinion, to be changed at my discretion, even if I am drunk.

    I will have a finger on a button that says "flush" and every case brought before me will involve the parties in question standing on a trapdoor. They each have 5 seconds to make their case. When it stops being amusing to me, I will press the "flush" button. Where they go, after they enter the trap door, will be something that is subject to my whims. I propose a high-speed series of clear plastic transport tubes that deposit people in various locations, depending on my mood. They can end up being flushed down a pipe that leads to the bottom of the ocean, where they are ejected and turned into fish food. They can end up 50 feet above a snowy mountain slope, and there will be television cameras positioned so that every time someone falls, their bodies will drop down the rocky, snowy face of the mountain until they stop tumbling, and there will be prizes based on where their broken body finally stops moving, like a Plinko machine. I will be the recipient of all such prizes, because I am awesome, but once per year I will allow two hobos to fight it out and claim a prize, and they must claim it by killing the other one with a plastic picnic spoon, without using their hands, which leaves only the teeth or the toes or another creatively strategic location to hold it steady. Another tube will transport them to a room that is filled with sexy dancing girls, and for 3 whole seconds they will believe I am being a kind and generous man, but then another trapdoor opens and they will have to battle the Rancor, again using only a plastic picnic spoon, and this time, without the use of their hands, feet, or mouth, so they will have to be very creative in how they wield it.

    I will genetically engineer the Rancor using only the finest public funds that would have otherwise been spent on wars and silly things like education.

    Also, I will get backlogged, often, as sometimes I have to sleep, so there will be a chamber where all the people who are too impatient can go and get my "express service" where I render sudden summary judgment on all of them. They will be allowed to collectively plead their case by voting on which single word from the English language they wish to submit as their testimony. If I do not laugh, I will press the "flush" button, and they will be forced to spend the next 70 years in a room with a man named Frank who never speaks and always wants to comb their hair while viciously poking them in the eye with his finger. For this he will be paid a handsome salary, and be given medical benefits and a huge pension, which he will never be allowed to collect, but I will tell him it is there.

    I will settle all civil disputes by forcing the parties in question to do improvisational comedy, and whichever one makes me laugh the least gets flushed, and the other person gets all their worldly possessions.

    I promise that my brand of justice will be cruel, absolute, and there will be no appeals process. I will be appointed for life, and my work schedule will be "whenever I feel like it" which will be every third tuesday for 1 hour. After that, it's off to Bermuda with a gaggle of nude models.

    Surely we can all agree that this system is better than what we have now?
    Last edited by Askthepizzaguy; 10-01-2010 at 02:41.
    #Winstontoostrong
    #Montytoostronger

  3. #3
    1000 post member club Member Quid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Confoederatio Helvetica
    Posts
    1,026

    Default Re: What would be different if there was no police

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
    Personally I think we should abolish all current government ...
    Pure class! Thanks!

    A privatised police force is a terrible idea on so many levels. All I have to say on this as most has already been said.

    Quid
    ...for it is revenge I seek...


    Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war
    Juleus Ceasar, Shakespear

  4. #4
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: What would be different if there was no police

    Quote Originally Posted by Quid View Post
    Pure class! Thanks!

    A privatised police force is a terrible idea on so many levels. All I have to say on this as most has already been said.

    Quid
    Which is that it's a bad idea. Because, ehhhhhh we agree it's a bad idea, now let's get naked.

  5. #5

    Default Re: What would be different if there was no police

    Unless you find people who all care about the police as much as you do, I doubt the creativity of the people you want to burden with running their own police force is going to come up with something much different from a police force -- only many times more expensive. It's costly to hire private contractors who want money up front. It costs nothing up front to use the police (literally: nothing). And the reason is that police is written off on the national balance sheet rather than your own, that police is not a for profit organisation, and that police are paid a lot less than private contractors doing equivalent work.

    Private contractors and other private security staff earn much, much, much more as private contractor than as equivalent employee of a state agency.
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 10-01-2010 at 16:14.
    - Tellos Athenaios
    CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool - EB Install Guide - How to track down loading CTD's - EB 1.1 Maps thread


    ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  6. #6
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: What would be different if there was no police

    Ah yes, because one case proves that police is the worst thing ever and everyone knows that the USA have the best police in the world so there couldn't possibly be any police system that works better.

    I'm totally with Askthepizzaguy's idea, I mean why not?


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  7. #7
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    In a hopeless place with no future
    Posts
    8,646

    Default Re: What would be different if there was no police

    What's with all the hyperbole in this thread?

    What?! You want one centralised police force controlled by some suits with an institutionalised monopoly on the use of force? Oh know, there will be nobody to question them! Their powers will go unchecked! And their power is even legally ingrained in the political system?! The government will be able to use them whenever and however they want! They'll be a new Gestapo, we'll be living in a fascist police state. Nooooo!

    I do not support the OP's proposals but can we at least keep things sensible?
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  8. #8
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,690
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: What would be different if there was no police

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    What's with all the hyperbole in this thread?

    What?! You want one centralised police force controlled by some suits with an institutionalised monopoly on the use of force? Oh know, there will be nobody to question them! Their powers will go unchecked! And their power is even legally ingrained in the political system?! The government will be able to use them whenever and however they want! They'll be a new Gestapo, we'll be living in a fascist police state. Nooooo!

    I do not support the OP's proposals but can we at least keep things sensible?
    Something that is "clearly" so preposterous can be shot down without this drivel [illustrated in the aforementioned quote]

    Rhyfelwyr, you forgot deathsquads, concentration camps, illegal torture, deportations...

    Hang on, all have been set up by current systems.

    Last edited by rory_20_uk; 10-01-2010 at 15:38.
    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  9. #9
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    In a hopeless place with no future
    Posts
    8,646

    Default Re: What would be different if there was no police

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Rhyfelwyr, you forgot deathsquads, concentration camps, illegal torture, deportations...

    Hang on, all have been set up by current systems.

    I was parodying the lefties, just to be clear, eg Jolt's outburst..

    As Tellos said, the problem with private security isn't that it would lead to gang chaos/anarchy, most people simply don't care enough for all the fuss that would come with maintaing their own private security. And even if it was done collectively within communities, the social links within them these days are far too weak compared to even 30 years ago, so it would end up getting placed in the hands of some committee, which would probably end up being dependent on the council, then for the sake of ease the links between them would be formalised, and suddenly it's in the hands of the government again.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    mayo
    Posts
    4,833

    Default Re: What would be different if there was no police

    I bet you any money private cops would be badly paid due to the parent company trying to save money in order the shareholders got a return.

    That would lead to high turnover of staff, low morale etc etc gimme comfortable lazy civil servant anyday when it come to security.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  11. #11
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,369

    Default Re: What would be different if there was no police

    What would be different if there was no police
    The muslims would rape your women and steal your possesions AND then as the coup de grace install sharia law


    Edit: so basically you're back where you started lol.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  12. #12
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: What would be different if there was no police

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Ah yes, because one case proves that police is the worst thing ever and everyone knows that the USA have the best police in the world so there couldn't possibly be any police system that works better.

    I'm totally with Askthepizzaguy's idea, I mean why not?
    Because it's taking a tiny bit of government back where it belongs, ie own responsibility. That needs people wlling to organise, put them in a situation and they will. Why such lazy thinking, if it were a college assignment it would probably spawn nothing but creativity.
    Last edited by Fragony; 10-01-2010 at 14:41.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO