I Don't Like Europe

[Vladimir]

I'm watching BBC America news. They're comparing and contrasting American and European reactions to the economic downturns. The broadcasters compared European expectations of state aid with American belief in self-guilt.

First of all, self-guilt is, IMHO, a Catholic phenomenon. I don't see how someone, especially a Brit (read: someone with bad teeth who I can't help but like), can say that largely Protestant America can have a sense of self-guilt. Especially when they contrast Americans, who will work jobs they're massively overqualified for to provide for their families, to Europeans, who will shut down a country because they feel that bankers are responsible for their problems.

To me, this just shows how Americans will swallow their pride to do whatever it takes, while Europeans, who are so obsessed with class, and how others perceive them, will inflict suffering on others before accepting it themselves.

This also ties into my belief that American forces should leave Europe. The Soviet threat is over and Europe has benefited for too long from American guarantees of security. The only problem that I see, as demonstrated by the above, is the Europeans will blame their problems on others and that, yet again, they will resort to killing each other. A nation that cannot defend itself should not exist. A nation that will not provide for its own defense should also not exist. Even though we will loose a considerable amount of influence in Europe we will gain a united, and competent, ally in two to three generations.

As much as I want in live in, explore, and *know* Europeans, I don't like Europe.

[gaelic cowboy]

I always thought it was a catchy tune they had

[a completely inoffensive name]

First of all, self-guilt is, IMHO, a Catholic phenomenon. I don't see how someone, especially a Brit (read: someone with bad teeth who I can't help but like), can say that largely Protestant America can have a sense of self-guilt. Especially when they contrast Americans, who will work jobs they're massively overqualified for to provide for their families, to Europeans, who will shut down a country because they feel that bankers are responsible for their problems.

To me, this just shows how Americans will swallow their pride to do whatever it takes, while Europeans, who are so obsessed with class, and how others perceive them, will inflict suffering on others before accepting it themselves.

This also ties into my belief that American forces should leave Europe. The Soviet threat is over and Europe has benefited for too long from American guarantees of security. The only problem that I see, as demonstrated by the above, is the Europeans will blame their problems on others and that, yet again, they will resort to killing each other. A nation that cannot defend itself should not exist. A nation that will not provide for its own defense should also not exist. Even though we will loose a considerable amount of influence in Europe we will gain a united, and competent, ally in two to three generations.

First of all, self-guilt is not a Catholic phenomenon. So that whole paragraph is easily written off.

To me, Americans are ignorant of what they could have and accept stagnation in standard of living because they live being told that at least having money for food is a "privilege".

This also ties (don't think about it, just accept it does) into my belief that America has put itself in the position of world cop and by abandoning Europe because they are selfish, we are being selfish or "European" ourselves, because like it or not, Europe is our closest allies.

Also I don't like provoking people to kill each other because I don't like them. Just a personal policy of mine.

[InsaneApache]

[Vladimir]

I always thought it was a catchy tune they had

Wait. Let me add an exception.

[Megas Methuselah]

I, also, don't like Europe.

Btw, I was under the impression that you are a European yourself.

[Strike For The South]

Texas=France

[pevergreen]

I always thought it was a catchy tune they had

Grr, you got in before me.

[PanzerJaeger]

I would love to live in Germany if it weren't for the gun laws.

[Sarmatian]

Indeed, Germany filled with M16s, howitzers, submachine guns etc... would be a heaven on earth.

I like Spain, myself. Warm, sunny, pretty women, good wine and siesta. Ah, you can't beat that

[Kagemusha]

So essentially Europe has become so united that you view it as single entity in your mind? Interesting. About the American troops in Europe. I actually agree. Soviet Union and Warsaw pact are long gone. There really isnt a reason for US troops to stay in Europe anymore, specially when modern Russia has GDP smaller then for example Spain. Those US resources are better used somewhere else.

[Skullheadhq]

First of all, self-guilt is, IMHO, a Catholic phenomenon.

LOL no. Just bring a good enough sum to the priest or confess your sins and you're on your way to make more sins, self-guild is more of a Protestant phenomen.

[rory_20_uk]

Europe as a whole is slowly coming to find that standard of living might require producing something. In the UK Unions were asking for the usual: increased wages, increased job security and increased pensions. Now, I'm not trained in economics, but I'd have far more respect if these things were priced. Of course, this would mean that for a 37.5 hour week the average worker would have to be producing multiples of what they currently are.

I don't see why doing a job merely to feed one's family is such a horror story. I know that many would prefer most of life's basics to magically appear but sadly that doesn't work - even with off-shoring the amount of misery that we currently do by subsidising our way of living by transferring the nasty bits to the developing world.

[Fragony]

So essentially Europe has become so united that you view it as single entity in your mind? Interesting.

Indeed. When a Euro is asked where he's from in the states he will tell you the country he's from, not Europe. An American in Europe will say the US, not the state he's from. Seeing it as a single entity isn't going to help understanding it, even in a country as small the Netherlands the north is completely different from the south. America isn't nearly as individualist as they like to think.

[Skullheadhq]

Indeed. When a Euro is asked where he's from in the states he will tell you the country he's from, not Europe. An American in Europe will say the US, not the state he's from. Seeing it as a single entity isn't going to help understanding it, even in a country as small the Netherlands the north is completely different from the south. America isn't nearly as individualist as they like to think.

Every village is different here.

[Fragony]

Every village is different here.

Ya, Europe is best understood with sport and the hooligan, where Americans have a may the best man win attitude we have petty rivalries, between towns and even villages, or even neighbourhoods.

[rory_20_uk]

I think that Americans are as taken with one-upmanship as we are.

[Hax]

Indeed. When a Euro is asked where he's from in the states he will tell you the country he's from, not Europe. An American in Europe will say the US, not the state he's from. Seeing it as a single entity isn't going to help understanding it, even in a country as small the Netherlands the north is completely different from the south. America isn't nearly as individualist as they like to think.

Except people from Texas. Or the occasional southern segregationist.

[Louis VI the Fat]

[Fragony]

Or the occasional southern segregationist.

You are more likely to meet a vampire in a tanning-salon

[Husar]

I would love to live in Germany if it weren't for the gun laws.

So you love the socialized healthcare, too?

I like Spain, myself. Warm, sunny, pretty women, good wine and siesta. Ah, you can't beat that

Don't they have even more unemployment than we do? I heard a lot of eastern europeans who used to work in spain are moving back to their home countries because the job situation in Spain has gotten so bad.

Indeed. When a Euro is asked where he's from in the states he will tell you the country he's from, not Europe. An American in Europe will say the US, not the state he's from.

As tourists perhaps, but they often behave like they own the internet, giving their location as:
Hottentotten, VA
Silly Hills, GA
and so on, as if everybody knew that GA means Georgia which is actually a country to the south of Russia.

America isn't nearly as individualist as they like to think.

Of course they're not, they have corporate identity which actually means everybody in a company or university is completely indoctrinated into thinking their company/university is the best and then they have the army which has to be supported or you're not a real american.

About the American troops in Europe.

Their imperialist power-projecting invaders should go home!
And they should take their stupid hospital that saves the lives of their wounded stormtroopers all the time with them!
I don't see why we proud people still have to live under their oppression like this! Our army should march into their bases and tell them to get out immediately, we need to restore our sovereignty and control over our territory, then expell their FBI, CIA and whatever agents, stop giving them our national secrets, remove fingerprint data from our travel passports and demand 20€ advertisement fees from american tourists so we can advertise our beer on american television all day.
We get our gas from Russia, what has America ever given us anyway?

Also @ Louis:
And yeah, I don't like America either, except Brazil, because of the girls, and the USA, they're kinda cool...oops...

[Vladimir]

I, also, don't like Europe.

Btw, I was under the impression that you are a European yourself.

Thank you? My ancestors are European, from Poland to Spain, and Italy to Ireland. I'm a mutt heavily influenced by European thought and genetics.

Which country did you think I was from?

So essentially Europe has become so united that you view it as single entity in your mind? Interesting. About the American troops in Europe. I actually agree. Soviet Union and Warsaw pact are long gone. There really isnt a reason for US troops to stay in Europe anymore, specially when modern Russia has GDP smaller then for example Spain. Those US resources are better used somewhere else.

Well, yea.

Of course, like everything, my views on that are based on my perceptions and biases. My expectation is that Europe finally become a single political entity with varying and unique cultures. The withdraw of U.S. forces will speed that process. We're cultural and ideological cousins and will continue our close relationship.

Europe as a whole is slowly coming to find that standard of living might require producing something. In the UK Unions were asking for the usual: increased wages, increased job security and increased pensions. Now, I'm not trained in economics, but I'd have far more respect if these things were priced. Of course, this would mean that for a 37.5 hour week the average worker would have to be producing multiples of what they currently are.

I don't see why doing a job merely to feed one's family is such a horror story. I know that many would prefer most of life's basics to magically appear but sadly that doesn't work - even with off-shoring the amount of misery that we currently do by subsidising our way of living by transferring the nasty bits to the developing world.

Good. The European economy has taken a subdued role on the global stage. If you people can make consumer products as good as your supercars, you'll be fine.

Louis: That's Africa.

[Andres]

The broadcasters compared European expectations of state aid with American belief in self-guilt.

I'm all for being responsible for myself, but if the state takes more than 60 % of my income (not counting the VAT I pay on everything I buy with the pathetic remnants of my salary), I'm damn well entitled to expect state aid when I'm in trouble indeed. You can't expect me to happily give the better part of my money to the government and then not asking anyting in return. For the monthly amount I pay, I expect a lot. So yeah, if things would get really ugly, you'll find me among those on the streets burning government property. It's partially MY property anyway, since I paid for it.



And yes, Europe is a unity. A pity about those Walloons living in the south of my country though. Not to mention the people of Limburg and West-Vlaanderen. And Halle Carnaval is way better than Ojlst Carnaval. And don't you ever make the mistake of calling me a Dutchman. But apart from that, we all live happily together in unity.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Vladimir]

I'm all for being responsible for myself, but if the state takes more than 60 % of my income (not counting the VAT I pay on everything I buy with the pathetic remnants of my salary), I'm damn well entitled to expect state aid when I'm in trouble indeed. You can't expect me to happily give the better part of my money to the government and then not asking anyting in return. For the monthly amount I pay, I expect a lot. So yeah, if things would get really ugly, you'll find me among those on the streets burning government property. It's partially MY property anyway, since I paid for it.

Yea, that's why I don't like high-tax states. They take away your money and so much more.

I usually watch BBCA for the outrage factor. It's good at getting me worked up.

[gaelic cowboy]

A nation that cannot defend itself should not exist. A nation that will not provide for its own defense should also not exist. Even though we will loose a considerable amount of influence in Europe we will gain a united, and competent, ally in two to three generations.

As much as I want in live in, explore, and *know* Europeans, I don't like Europe.

Pretty extreme you do realise that Geo-Politically some countries cannot defend themselves properly because it will actually precipitate an attack if they increase there ability to project power.

[rory_20_uk]

I don't agree with that completely as there are many weapons that are heavily defensive and pose no offensive capability.

For instance, mine fields are a good defence but pose no threat to a country's neighbours; fighters might be bought with the intention of defence but can be dual purpose whereas fixed AA missiles can't be retasked for any other purpose.

You might not win friends by having dug-in defences by one's border (and they might not be the best use of one's forces in an ideal world) but they are definitely not an overt threat to others.

[Vladimir]

Pretty extreme you do realise that Geo-Politically some countries cannot defend themselves properly because it will actually precipitate an attack if they increase there ability to project power.

Not necessarily. Public, defensive alliances are nearly as powerful as armies.

[gaelic cowboy]

Right it seems I have to give an example so here it goes.

Ireland is a small country it is completely incapable of defending itself from UK attack.

1-The Geo-Political imperative of Ireland is to have good or at least not hostile relations with the UK this has been standard policy since the foundation of the state.

2-Ireland is most at danger from internal strife therefore our army must be large enough prevent civil war but not overly large that it threatens the defence of the UK.

3-The UK knows it vastly outnumbers and outguns Ireland but it cannot hope to invade or hold the national territory of the Republic because it will just cause the same outcome as 1919-1921.

4-The first three points mean that Ireland can never enter a collective security arrangement with UK as it will endanger us through civil war. We also cant enter any other type of collective security arrangement in case we increase our threat to the UK. Luckily for UK this all means we are not a threat and so the UK is quite happy to help our security services discreetly in preventing attacks which ultimately threaten them and us.




The best example of this in action is from WW2 Dev kept Ireland half neutral during the war so as not to precipitate invasion by Britain and also so as not to anger Germany who many felt would win. Therefore most Irish artillery faced North in order to prevent the UK trying to seize vital ports and airfields which Churchill felt were vital to his winning the war.

German prisoners of war in Ireland were kept here for the duration of the war however Allied prisoners mysteriously found themselves across the border after a day or two. The British and Irish regularly exchanged what little info they had on various threats and Britain helped set up G2 our military intelligence section. Info on weather was passed on as a matter of course which helped the allies on D-Day all done under cover of neutrality.

Any attempt by Dev to support Britain too strongly could instead tip Ireland into a second civil war which would have been used as an excuse to invade therefore internal security trumped all other considerations. Hence Dev interned as many IRA men as he could find during the war to ensure Irish stability.

When your a small country you must run between the legs of the elephant but you also have to make sure he does not take a notion to stamp on you.

[Skullheadhq]

And don't you ever make the mistake of calling me a Dutchman. But apart from that, we all live happily together in unity.

You'll be Dutchmen soon enough, just you wait...