What now?

[Joe18]

I have started a campaign with Makedonia and i did what everyone says to do: Build roads, trade ports etc. But my finances are not improving, since Korinthos and Sparte, which i captured, are going minus no matter what i do. All of my cities slowly but steadily decrease their income and i can't raise taxes anymore. Plus i can't build an army because i don't have the mnai and when i try to build units then the city loses income. The Epeirotes are pressing and i i am just holding on without the ability to attack too. What have i done wrong. Is there a guide for 1.2 Makedonia? I have read the 0.8 version and the results are the above.

[Lysimachos]

First of all, no city ever loses money. The figure shown on the campaign map just takes in acount the upkeep of your units, which is divided between your cities according to their population (a large city pays a larger share of the upkeep than a small city), so it may seem as if your more populated cities lost money, although they actually don't.

Could you perhaps post a screenshot of your campaign, so we may get a better idea of what's going on? My best guess at this time would be you have too expensive troops or ships to support.

[QuintusSertorius]

You should be using cheap units (and no cavalry) for garrisons, and keeping your active army stacks to a minimum. Look out for cost-ineffective elite units (especially elite cavalry or elephants) that can be disbanded right away, along with navies if you aren't actually going to land troops anywhere in the immediate future.

[Fluvius Camillus]

If you play correctly as Makedonia there should be no need to disband any land units.

~Fluvius

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

As Makedonia, Athens should be your primary target. You need it badly and you need it fast. It is a very rich city that will solve your financial problems, unlike poor little Sparta.

[Earl of Memory]

You said you captured Korinthos and Sparte? You should try to capture Athens as soon as possible then, you'll leave the Koinon Hellenon with only one city (Rhodos... okay maybe Krete), your finances will improve, and unless you use Alex.exe or BI.exe, there's little to fear from them since RTW.exe rarely makes sea invasions, leaving your southern border safe. This way you can focus on kicking out Epeiros too, and once you're done with them you can have some peace (also look up north, the areas north of Epeiros are undeveloped but they have some of, if not, the richest Mines in the game)

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Korinthos is already in Macedonian control at the start of the campaign. So Joe's only captured Sparta so far, which explains why he's losing money.

[QuintusSertorius]

You said you captured Korinthos and Sparte? You should try to capture Athens as soon as possible then, you'll leave the Koinon Hellenon with only one city (Rhodos... okay maybe Krete), your finances will improve, and unless you use Alex.exe or BI.exe, there's little to fear from them since RTW.exe rarely makes sea invasions, leaving your southern border safe. This way you can focus on kicking out Epeiros too, and once you're done with them you can have some peace (also look up north, the areas north of Epeiros are undeveloped but they have some of, if not, the richest Mines in the game)

Krete is rebel, so KH don't have it. Not unless they've landed something there (which does happen sometimes).

[Fluvius Camillus]

Krete is rebel, so KH don't have it. Not unless they've landed something there (which does happen sometimes).

They start there with an army under their faction leader, ready to besiege it (which the AI rarely does in my campaigns).

~Fluvius

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

They start there with an army under their faction leader, ready to besiege it (which the AI rarely does in my campaigns).

~Fluvius

That static, brain-dead KH army on Crete (right beside the town, but never besieging it) annoyed me so much I changed EB to put it near Sparta instead. So now the brain-dead KH faction leader always goes and sulks in a wood north-east of Sparta until the Maks find him. What a fracking loser.

[QuintusSertorius]

They start there with an army under their faction leader, ready to besiege it (which the AI rarely does in my campaigns).

~Fluvius

Oh, so that's what they're about. I teleported them into the Greek mainland about 10 years in with my Pergamon game when things were getting a bit hot for them in Hellas. I often have to do the same with a full stack that wanders out of Rhodos then does nothing.

[panten]

You should be using cheap units (and no cavalry) for garrisons, and keeping your active army stacks to a minimum. Look out for cost-ineffective elite units (especially elite cavalry or elephants) that can be disbanded right away, along with navies if you aren't actually going to land troops anywhere in the immediate future.

Actually, I would never disband any elephants - sure they were expensive and contributed to my lack of treasury, but they also kept me going as they won me countless victories as Epeiros and made my exhausted and decimated army still a force to be reckoned with (eliminating Makedon and the KH within 5 years of game time). Ships, sure - there's no need to keep them around. But elite units (as well as cavalry) are worth so much more than levies and if you use them well they win you wars, not just battles.

[Lysimachos]

Actually, I would never disband any elephants - sure they were expensive and contributed to my lack of treasury, but they also kept me going as they won me countless victories as Epeiros and made my exhausted and decimated army still a force to be reckoned with (eliminating Makedon and the KH within 5 years of game time). Ships, sure - there's no need to keep them around. But elite units (as well as cavalry) are worth so much more than levies and if you use them well they win you wars, not just battles.

"Use them well" is the important part. Expensive units should be in an army which is regularly fighting battles in which the elite units' superiority makes a difference. Anywhere else anything above average has no place (in the beginning).

[panten]

"Use them well" is the important part. Expensive units should be in an army which is regularly fighting battles in which the elite units' superiority makes a difference. Anywhere else anything above average has no place (in the beginning).

Absolutely. If expensive units are not fighting in the beginning they are pretty much only burning money - and chances are, there's not a lot of it. On the other hand: no matter how good one is a general, there will be losses - especially with units who have not been upgraded and are green - here elites make the difference: they effectively hold back or break the enemy and can cause massive damage to the enemy army. Keeping them around will make it easier to expand into new territories and will help to stabilize economy faster - even with the higher upkeep. And those troops are really worth it since it will take a probably long time to be able to recruit them.

[QuintusSertorius]

Actually, I would never disband any elephants - sure they were expensive and contributed to my lack of treasury, but they also kept me going as they won me countless victories as Epeiros and made my exhausted and decimated army still a force to be reckoned with (eliminating Makedon and the KH within 5 years of game time). Ships, sure - there's no need to keep them around. But elite units (as well as cavalry) are worth so much more than levies and if you use them well they win you wars, not just battles.

Long as you've got a general with a doctor-type ancillary, losses don't tend to be that bad unless you've misjudged things badly. I've never found elites generally, nor elephants specifically are worth the money. Cheapo-basic units (who courtesy of type II or type IV governments start with a chevron) with upgraded weapons and armour, handled appropriately in battle do the job. And are easily replaced if losses are bad.

I use Epeiros as a migrated faction (Pergamon in one game, Massilia in the other) where I can't get type I governments anywhere (being in Asia Minor/Thrace or Gaul) and I can't say I've ever felt a great loss not having any of their elites. Though I don't play anywhere near as quickly as you do, and I never aim to wipe any faction out.

[panten]

Long as you've got a general with a doctor-type ancillary, losses don't tend to be that bad unless you've misjudged things badly. I've never found elites generally, nor elephants specifically are worth the money. Cheapo-basic units (who courtesy of type II or type IV governments start with a chevron) with upgraded weapons and armour, handled appropriately in battle do the job. And are easily replaced if losses are bad.

I use Epeiros as a migrated faction (Pergamon in one game, Massilia in the other) where I can't get type I governments anywhere (being in Asia Minor/Thrace or Gaul) and I can't say I've ever felt a great loss not having any of their elites. Though I don't play anywhere near as quickly as you do, and I never aim to wipe any faction out.

Fair enough, it definitely works without elites or not wiping anybody out. I usually use basic armies myself, and considering the threat level also leave factions usually alive. Unfortunately, few of my generals have/get the doctor trait so I have sometimes unexpected heavy losses - especially in the beginning.
Since you mentioned Epeiros too: I started that game for fun, nothing serious (I'm too occupied with other stuff to take a slow approach, sadly), I took Pyrrhos and conquered Pella, then went south to solidify rule and keep the Macedonians in check. Menawhile, I lost Taras - thought I had enough to beat the army besieging the city, but was wrong - so I was in heavy debt and Macedon still had a large army I needed to eliminate, so i made the mistake to walk by Athens. Athenians didn't like it so I had to fight off several armies and was basically forced to take the city - then went on to defeat the Macedonians in an epic battle near Korinthos - and apparently killed off their remaining family members and thus wiping them out rather unplanned. Then went off to Sparta so I could claim rule over Greece.. While my "normal" troops were really beaten already, my elephants remained full strength (until some got killed by my own skirmishers trying "harass" a fleeing enemy - but they were "awared" with the honor of assaulting a city later - sadly, 30 of them survived) and were the source of every victory I had. (they and the Illyrian cavalry - they are awesome, but were down to 10% of their strength by that point). Currently they are fighting in Italy and already played a major part in a crazy battle with loads of trees and a full stack of heavily armored Romans.

Now while there are campaigns were I don't really use elites, I found this to be a lot of fun and they were definitely worth more than their money. Don't get me wrong; I agree on your view, but elites can make a game interesting as well, especially if you have a small army and REALLY need to rely on these troops to win the battle - this gives me a new challenge (I mean beating the AI is only one on occassion) and keeps the game fun and a nice variation from all the basic army fighting I have done (In fact, these were only the second unit of elephants I have ever commanded - which makes me love the little buggers even more ;) )

[QuintusSertorius]

Fair enough, it definitely works without elites or not wiping anybody out. I usually use basic armies myself, and considering the threat level also leave factions usually alive. Unfortunately, few of my generals have/get the doctor trait so I have sometimes unexpected heavy losses - especially in the beginning.
Since you mentioned Epeiros too: I started that game for fun, nothing serious (I'm too occupied with other stuff to take a slow approach, sadly), I took Pyrrhos and conquered Pella, then went south to solidify rule and keep the Macedonians in check. Menawhile, I lost Taras - thought I had enough to beat the army besieging the city, but was wrong - so I was in heavy debt and Macedon still had a large army I needed to eliminate, so i made the mistake to walk by Athens. Athenians didn't like it so I had to fight off several armies and was basically forced to take the city - then went on to defeat the Macedonians in an epic battle near Korinthos - and apparently killed off their remaining family members and thus wiping them out rather unplanned. Then went off to Sparta so I could claim rule over Greece.. While my "normal" troops were really beaten already, my elephants remained full strength (until some got killed by my own skirmishers trying "harass" a fleeing enemy - but they were "awared" with the honor of assaulting a city later - sadly, 30 of them survived) and were the source of every victory I had. (they and the Illyrian cavalry - they are awesome, but were down to 10% of their strength by that point). Currently they are fighting in Italy and already played a major part in a crazy battle with loads of trees and a full stack of heavily armored Romans.

Now while there are campaigns were I don't really use elites, I found this to be a lot of fun and they were definitely worth more than their money. Don't get me wrong; I agree on your view, but elites can make a game interesting as well, especially if you have a small army and REALLY need to rely on these troops to win the battle - this gives me a new challenge (I mean beating the AI is only one on occassion) and keeps the game fun and a nice variation from all the basic army fighting I have done (In fact, these were only the second unit of elephants I have ever commanded - which makes me love the little buggers even more ;) )

I always build the doctor building fairly early on, so most of my FMs have a doctor ancillary. It's invaluable in turning small losses into nothing, or even bigger losses into something you can recover from.

Epeiros works really well for any migrated faction idea (or at least any involving a Greek power of some sort). Pergamon is my favourite, I'm giving Massilia a go and considering the Bosphoran Kingdom (which would mean facing off horse archers). I think it helps that I don't much like pike phalanxes or hold their elites in high esteem, though the Agrianians and Thracian heavies are sometimes useful.

Thing is, a lot of the very basic units are actually pretty good handled right. Classical Hoplites, Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers, any slingers with some experience, Gallic Light Cavalry to name but a few who are disproportionately good for their cost. Bear in mind I cap any stack at 14-15 units, combine that with no elites, and it can make for some challenging battles against AI full stacks.

[Joe18]

Athenai which is supposed to be a rich city has gone from 1031 mnai per turn to 95 mnai per turn and i don't know why... I'm building the upgraded mines (20 turns 32000 mnai) but i don't think it has anything to do with it because it started long before i started building it. Also is there any trait related to the Agoge in Sparte? If there is how can i get it?

[CorporalJigsore]

At least Koinon Hellenon family members get a notification that they can go to the Spartan Agoge when they come to age. Not sure about Macedonians, haven't really played them in ages.

And did you get the point stated earlier that recruiting more troops decreases your income because upkeep costs increase?

[vollorix]

Macs FM can also complete the Spartan Agoge training ( i guess, any greek faction can, but dunno for Seleucids or Bactria, though ).
Concerning city income: each city pays for the army upkeep, depending on it´s size. And since Athens is your largest town, you see that low income overall, while it´s making you crazy money ( take a look at advanced settlement details ).

[Fluvius Camillus]

Macs FM can also complete the Spartan Agoge training ( i guess, any greek faction can, but dunno for Seleucids or Bactria, though ).
Concerning city income: each city pays for the army upkeep, depending on it´s size. And since Athens is your largest town, you see that low income overall, while it´s making you crazy money ( take a look at advanced settlement details ).

Baktria can, experienced it first hand!

~Fluvius

[FriendlyFire]

Thing is, a lot of the very basic units are actually pretty good handled right. Classical Hoplites, Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers, any slingers with some experience, Gallic Light Cavalry to name but a few who are disproportionately good for their cost.

Huge agreement on this. In my Hayasdan armies right now I have classical and Persian hoplites, levy phalangites, Scythian riders, Georgian swordsmen, and various local flavors of archers, spearmen, and axemen. All less than 400 Mnai upkeep, and they're stomping the Greeks quite handily. If Baktria or the Ptolemaioi ever get serious then I might spurge on some mercenary phalangites (>500 Mnai upkeep, the horror!), but apart from that I'll stay cheap - and save up for a Royal Cataphract Army

Also is there any trait related to the Agoge in Sparte? If there is how can i get it?

As noted above you'll be told when a new family member comes of age that he can attend the Agoge in Sparte. Basically, he has to get there before he's 20, and then stay there for 4 years. Completing the Agoge normally gives your general +1 influence and +1 morale for his troops, which seems a pretty poor return for 4 years of his life. But you might have someone who excels (+2/+2), or even someone who gets invited to join the Spartan "secret police". And if you build up a good academy in Sparte then your militaristic types can do their studying and get ancillaries while at the Agoge, while your wimpy bureaucrats can do the same in Athens.

[Joe18]

At least Koinon Hellenon family members get a notification that they can go to the Spartan Agoge when they come to age. Not sure about Macedonians, haven't really played them in ages.

And did you get the point stated earlier that recruiting more troops decreases your income because upkeep costs increase?

I know and i have stopped recruiting a lot of turns ago. I even disbanded units.

As noted above you'll be told when a new family member comes of age that he can attend the Agoge in Sparte. Basically, he has to get there before he's 20, and then stay there for 4 years. Completing the Agoge normally gives your general +1 influence and +1 morale for his troops, which seems a pretty poor return for 4 years of his life. But you might have someone who excels (+2/+2), or even someone who gets invited to join the Spartan "secret police". And if you build up a good academy in Sparte then your militaristic types can do their studying and get ancillaries while at the Agoge, while your wimpy bureaucrats can do the same in Athens.

Does it require a specific goverment type? I have IV there. Is there a special trait/ancillary aqcuired only in Athenai?

[QuintusSertorius]

Does it require a specific goverment type? I have IV there. Is there a special trait/ancillary aqcuired only in Athenai?

Do you have many type IV governments? The upkeep on the Hellenistic Mercenary General (client ruler) is over 1000 mnai a turn. Just a few of those will seriously tax your treasury.

[FriendlyFire]

Does it require a specific goverment type? I have IV there. Is there a special trait/ancillary aqcuired only in Athenai?

I never had a problem getting the Agoge, but I never put a Type IV government in Sparte. You'll have a rebellion very quickly, because every one of your FMs attending the Agoge will get the interloper trait, which means +5% unrest per FM per turn

(Has anyone ever had Spartan eleutheroi appear in a Sparte rebellion? I'm imagining a unit or two of rebel Spartans with double-silver chevrons and gold equipment upgrades... brrrrrr...)

There are no special traits or ancillaries acquired only in Athenai, but of course it starts with an academy, so FMs sent there tend to acquire ancillaries very quickly.

[Biowulf]

If I remember correctly the Eleusinian trait is acquired in Athens only. I don't remember what it gives though.

[moonburn]

it´s the secrets i always set my family members to sparta when they´re 16 and once they complete the agoge i send them to athens for the secrets (roleplay the highschool to university change)

also joe seriously :\ type 2 goverments all the way or even 3 if you want money desperatly (type3 goverments are specifically made to squeeze the penny´s of the people and increase trade and income) and remember to imediatly use your navy to fight off the koinon hellenon navy and if you happen to win go for the epirote navy (remember to wait until they send a fm to taras to keep the romans busy ) (and if you win the 2 sea batles disband them or keep them without repairing the navy until you really need it )

[Captain Trek]

(Has anyone ever had Spartan eleutheroi appear in a Sparte rebellion? I'm imagining a unit or two of rebel Spartans with double-silver chevrons and gold equipment upgrades... brrrrrr...)

Unfortuneately, according to the EB Units List...

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/

...Spartan hoplites do not appear on the Elutheroi unit list... This strikes me as being a little odd given that things like Hellenic Cataphracts and Cohors Evocata appear on their list, but it effectivelu means that Elutheroi Spartan Hoplites cannot appear even if Sparte rebels...

[Lysimachos]

Do you have many type IV governments? The upkeep on the Hellenistic Mercenary General (client ruler) is over 1000 mnai a turn. Just a few of those will seriously tax your treasury.

In 1.2 you don't necessarily need a client ruler in a type IV government, though they are not very efficient without one.

[FriendlyFire]

If I remember correctly the Eleusinian trait is acquired in Athens only. I don't remember what it gives though.

Ah, you're right! I'd forgotten about that one. It just gives +1 influence.