What would an authentic Bosphoran Kingdom army look like?

[rotten]

Good points; I should've known ekdromoi get destroyed by flanking HA's

and since this is the field army, not garrison, of a wealthy polis:

2 family members, also serving as your meh-grade heavy cavalry
1 Hippeis
2 scythian horse archers
1 scythian riders
4 foot archers (mix of locals and hellenes, no elites)
1 Bosphoran heavy archers (how could I forget?)
3 hoplitai (classic)

Note that prodromoi are not available in the Crimea (according to the recruitment viewer). I've also ditched the slingers for the bosphoran heavy archers, can't believe I missed them!

As for heavy cavalry, one might replace a FM with some variety of Hetairoi, but having more than 2 heavy cavalry units, even in the main stack, seems a bit extravagant. Until you're very, very rich.

[QuintusSertorius]

Good points; I should've known ekdromoi get destroyed by flanking HA's

and since this is the field army, not garrison, of a wealthy polis:

2 family members, also serving as your meh-grade heavy cavalry
1 Hippeis
2 scythian horse archers
1 scythian riders
4 foot archers (mix of locals and hellenes, no elites)
1 Bosphoran heavy archers (how could I forget?)
3 hoplitai (classic)

Note that prodromoi are not available in the Crimea (according to the recruitment viewer). I've also ditched the slingers for the bosphoran heavy archers, can't believe I missed them!

As for heavy cavalry, one might replace a FM with some variety of Hetairoi, but having more than 2 heavy cavalry units, even in the main stack, seems a bit extravagant. Until you're very, very rich.

Given what's been said, I think the hippeis should be replaced with the heavy skirmisher cavalry (who I think are armoured enough to resist arrows) or dropped altogether. FMs are your heavy cavalry.

The four foot archers are arrow-fodder. Replace with:
2 Thureophoroi (later Thorakitai) - to cover the hoplites flanks
1-2 Bosphoran heavy archers
0-1 Peltastai

[rotten]

foot archers are arrow fodder? They work well enough for me. They're questionable on the attack versus sauros, but superb in defense and they own all forms of skirmisher except peltasts (still beat them though).
If you find them lacking, feel free to replace them, and some skirmisher cavalry would be nice if, unlike me, you can use them.
I'll take your word on the thorakitai, although used by the Sele AI they were only a nuisance to my hai archer army.
Also, hippeis are not heavy cavalry. They have 20 def and a +25 charge, which is... fine, but not heavy. The only proper heavy cavalry to have a lower charge than that are the Iberi Lanceari (23), and... nope, it says 43 in the file. I remember buffing their armor but not that.

[QuintusSertorius]

foot archers are arrow fodder? They work well enough for me. They're questionable on the attack versus sauros, but superb in defense and they own all forms of skirmisher except peltasts (still beat them though).
If you find them lacking, feel free to replace them, and some skirmisher cavalry would be nice if, unlike me, you can use them.

Well, toxotai (the "Hellene" archers - unless you were thinking Kretan mercs) are unarmoured and wouldn't last long. Are the Scythian foot archers better armoured?

I thought Bosphoran heavies would be the entirety of the foot archer contingent.

I'll take your word on the thorakitai, although used by the Sele AI they were only a nuisance to my hai archer army.
Also, hippeis are not heavy cavalry. They have 20 def and a +25 charge, which is... fine, but not heavy. The only proper heavy cavalry to have a lower charge than that are the Iberi Lanceari (23), and... nope, it says 43 in the file. I remember buffing their armor but not that.

I figured thorakitai later (not straight away because they're supposed to be a later development), but thureophoroi in the meantime. Well-armoured and a bit more mobile than the hoplites.

Hippeis are just not very good mediums. Don't have the stamina of skirmishers, don't have the charge of heavier ones.

[rotten]

Too many heavy archers imo. Effective, yes, they will own almost every low level unit in the game, but not authentic. If we're going only for effective, then you don't need anything other than heavy foot archers (for cities), horse archers, mounted skirmishers and heavy cavalry, really.

Toxotai are unarmored, so are all other low grade foot archers, but, apart from their historicity, I take them because they win arrow duels vs all basic horse archers (on account of having more firepower and range - this might not be true for any unit without composite bows, though), because they're dirt cheap and if used correctly and in enough numbers their fire power is devastating. I once stopped a heavy seleukid phalanx and peltast army cold, and slaughtered them with an archer and horse archer only army. Most horse archer types aren't that well armored either and you have hoplitai, thureoporoi/thorakitai and heavy cavalry for that.

As for hippeis, they are inferior indeed, but if you want a local-dominated army you might as well play Sauromatae to begin with. The greeks would be a little too proud to let that army fight for them (and a little too afraid it might betray them, which it would) and if they got to the point of fielding heavy cavalry they would have some greek medium cavalry as well (and prodromoi are unavailable). A lot of people, myself included, complain that the AI's armies, apart from being misused, are poorly composed. Well, if we always use only the most effective units (which is not historical), that is exactly what will happen. Using hippeis is like a pre-Marian Roman player using the checkerboard formation instead of better tactics. It worked well enough irl (or not? they did change it after all) but the game engine doesn't work that way. Also, Roman equites, I'm told, are bad; but people still take them if they want to be historically correct, otherwise why not just take the better mercenaries available around them?

Anyway, it'd be almost impossible to fully agree on this; I'm aware that my model is severely lacking in javelin troops for example.

Maybe like this:
2 FM or 1 FM 1 heavy cavalry
1 Hippeis (or an extra horse archer or hippokontistai unit if you really mean to ditch them)
1 Scythian horse archers, or any simple horse archer
1 Hippokontistai
1 Bosphoran heavy archers
1 toxotai
1 local foot archers
1 peltastai
3 hoplitai (or mix them with pezhetairoi if you can get those as well)
2 thureophoroi into thorakitai

The benefit of this army is that it is not a gimmick army, and it won't autowin against any remotely reasonable composition without skill. Your spear line is good, but not really to the standards of other greek armies; your missile firepower is good, but not as good as what the nomads and armenians will have in a 14-stack. You'd have to really mix things up and use your diverse units together well to get the better of an even battle.

[QuintusSertorius]

Too many heavy archers imo. Effective, yes, they will own almost every low level unit in the game, but not authentic. If we're going only for effective, then you don't need anything other than heavy foot archers (for cities), horse archers, mounted skirmishers and heavy cavalry, really.

You think the Bosphorans qualify as elites? If so then I'd agree one unit is probably enough of them. We're not only going for effective, it's just that toxotai don't make a lot of sense for a rich kingdom who can draw on better local archers than them.

Toxotai are unarmored, so are all other low grade foot archers, but, apart from their historicity, I take them because they win arrow duels vs all basic horse archers (on account of having more firepower and range - this might not be true for any unit without composite bows, though), because they're dirt cheap and if used correctly and in enough numbers their fire power is devastating. I once stopped a heavy seleukid phalanx and peltast army cold, and slaughtered them with an archer and horse archer only army. Most horse archer types aren't that well armored either and you have hoplitai, thureoporoi/thorakitai and heavy cavalry for that.

Toxotai have a shorter range than all the horse archers - they have the underpowered western European bow, not a composite one. Not only will they not win duels with horse archers, they'll be annihilated by them. Their firepower is decidedly paltry against anything that has armour (or even a decent shield). Compare with sphendenotai, who will devastate unarmoured units, and even take a heavy toll on armoured units from the front.

My point about their armour is this; why would AI horse archers waste ammo on the armoured units when there are these soft targets around? I certainly never use archers on armoured units when there are skirmishers around to be butchered. Again I don't think it makes a lot of sense that a rich kingdom would field pauper units (which is what toxotai, akontistai and hippokontistai are) that aren't locals.

As for hippeis, they are inferior indeed, but if you want a local-dominated army you might as well play Sauromatae to begin with. The greeks would be a little too proud to let that army fight for them (and a little too afraid it might betray them, which it would) and if they got to the point of fielding heavy cavalry they would have some greek medium cavalry as well (and prodromoi are unavailable). A lot of people, myself included, complain that the AI's armies, apart from being misused, are poorly composed. Well, if we always use only the most effective units (which is not historical), that is exactly what will happen. Using hippeis is like a pre-Marian Roman player using the checkerboard formation instead of better tactics. It worked well enough irl (or not? they did change it after all) but the game engine doesn't work that way. Also, Roman equites, I'm told, are bad; but people still take them if they want to be historically correct, otherwise why not just take the better mercenaries available around them?

You've got FMs for your "Hellene cavalry". That's exactly what I do when playing Romans, no need to recruit equites when your FMs are surrounded by them. Hippeis are just an extra cavalry unit that doesn't really serve a purpose. Those heavy skirmishers on the other hand would work if you want a genuinely separate Hellenic cavalry unit.

Anyway, it'd be almost impossible to fully agree on this; I'm aware that my model is severely lacking in javelin troops for example.

Maybe like this:
2 FM or 1 FM 1 heavy cavalry
1 Hippeis (or an extra horse archer or hippokontistai unit if you really mean to ditch them)
1 Scythian horse archers, or any simple horse archer
1 Hippokontistai
1 Bosphoran heavy archers
1 toxotai
1 local foot archers
1 peltastai
3 hoplitai (or mix them with pezhetairoi if you can get those as well)
2 thureophoroi into thorakitai

The benefit of this army is that it is not a gimmick army, and it won't autowin against any remotely reasonable composition without skill. Your spear line is good, but not really to the standards of other greek armies; your missile firepower is good, but not as good as what the nomads and armenians will have in a 14-stack. You'd have to really mix things up and use your diverse units together well to get the better of an even battle.

I mostly agree with the above, though I'd ditch the hippeis for heavy skirmisher cavalry, not use the hippokontistai, and have two or three horse archers (so total six cavalry). Then change the toxotai for another local foot archer. Total fifteen units, removing the peltastai and/or the heavy skirmisher cavalry if I wanted to reduce stack size.

[Ca Putt]

Hippakontistai are not paupers, they may be called levy or militia but not paupers. they are abit like the Merchant cav in M2TW.
they may not be welltrained but they are composed of upper middleclass and lower nonlemen's sons, thus even above the Hoplitai in social status. plus, as Horses are probably easier to attain on the Crim than the Peleponnes I'd guess that they'd be pretty common, at least in times of need that is ;) Hippakontistai are (contrary to their use in EB as first cav recruitable for KH) a sign for a rich but threatened state, at least when combined with real cavalry to represent the real nobles ;)

[rotten]

Well, i'm not that familiar with javelin cavalry, that's why I put hippokontistai. Any hellenes, locals and other bastard varieties will do. You're probably right about toxotai, the bosphorans probably used them once, they got raped by composite bow archers and they never looked back anyway.

With heavy archers, I've encountered the Persian variety and they win archery duels vs light archers with composite bows easily. I generally had to chase them with cavalry, and they even put up a good fight against scythian horse archers in melee. If they're anything to go by, don't bring too many units of bosphoran heavy archers to a fight or you'll win too easily and with no satisfaction.