Why can't Europe defend itself?

[Vuk]

How many wars have Europeans fought to the bitter end from the start?
How many wars have Americans fought to the bitter end from the start?

Hmmm.......

You are talking ancient history now Rory. Europeans used to be tough, hard working people, but that is not the case now.
I already talked about personality and European posters in this thread have just confirmed what I said. Even physically though, when I was in Europe I was shocked by how pathetically weak and unused to any type of manual labour people were. The average person in the US is a LOT more fit, a lot stronger, and a lot better suited to the hardships of enduring a war. The average European is fit for neither combat nor factory work.
Try shopping for a shirt in France as an American. The necks on them are all so tiny that your struggle will be just finding one that fits and American neck. :P

[rory_20_uk]

The rates of obesity and general ill-health are far greater in the USA than anywhere in Europe.

Americans mentally have never had hardship in war since probably the American Civil War, and even then it was sporadic.

Most weaponry does not require a 18 stone wall of muscle to use. AKs can even be used by children effectively. I think one of the German Emperors was the last person to try to get giants to fight as a unit (the father of Peter the Great). They were useless and slaughtered by cannon and shot. Things have advanced since then.

Although as I say above, the wide neck is more usually going to be encircling a vast amount of fat.

[Vuk]

The rates of obesity and general ill-health are far greater in the USA than anywhere in Europe.

Americans mentally have never had hardship in war since probably the American Civil War, and even then it was sporadic.

Most weaponry does not require a 18 stone wall of muscle to use. AKs can even be used by children effectively. I think one of the German Emperors was the last person to try to get giants to fight as a unit (the father of Peter the Great). They were useless and slaughtered by cannon and shot. Things have advanced since then.

Although as I say above, the wide neck is more usually going to be encircling a vast amount of fat.

Do you really think that strength and physical fitness are not important to combat? Combat tests your body's limits to the max, and the limits of American bodies are a lot higher than that of European bodies. The average European probably could not even carry a wounded comrade off the field.
Just as important is the work on the homefront to support the war effort. Large size and strength is not only a product of hard work, but essential for the type of work that needs to be done in the case of a sustained war.
The Russians, Chinese, Indians, and Americans are tough people who can cope with hardships, but Europeans who do not even work half of the year would shrivel up and die.
I hate hurt your feelings Rory, but size does matter.

[al Roumi]

Do you really think that strength and physical fitness are not important to combat? Combat tests your body's limits to the max, and the limits of American bodies are a lot higher than that of European bodies. The average European probably could not even carry a wounded comrade off the field.
Just as important is the work on the homefront to support the war effort. Large size and strength is not only a product of hard work, but essential for the type of work that needs to be done in the case of a sustained war.
The Russians, Chinese, Indians, and Americans are tough people who can cope with hardships, but Europeans who do not even work half of the year would shrivel up and die.
I hate hurt your feelings Rory, but size does matter.

Do you know something quite fascinating about endurance? In terms of resistance to true hardship, like famine, people with a lower calory intake will out-survive those who require a larger one. A grisly example of this is to be found in this book, where a mother outlived her 20 something boxer son who could simply not get enough food to sustain his athletic and resource hungry body.

Plus, you big oafish americans make larger targets.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

@tellos: that's just realpolitik basically? I'm suggesting that sometimes countries should act against selfish interests and act on behalf of other people in the world (and not just through economics). So need and requirement and self defense don't come into it.

Let's drop self interest as a term...it seems like people are using it in the psychological egoism kind of way.

[Tellos Athenaios]

@tellos: that's just realpolitik basically? I'm suggesting that sometimes countries should act against selfish interests and act on behalf of other people in the world (and not just through economics). So need and requirement and self defense don't come into it.

Yes fine, and I agree: sometimes countries should show that they, collectively, got something of a “soul” as well as a wallet or a gun.

But a large army doesn't come into it.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yes fine, and I agree: sometimes countries should show that they, collectively, got something of a “soul” as well as a wallet or a gun.

But a large army doesn't come into it.

Doesn't military force come into it sometimes? In the case of south korea as mentioned. I lack knowledge needed to say anything about other countries...but it is a potential at least in other places.

So it looks so far like Shibumi had it right, that Europe lets the USA pay for the policing, and spends their money on themselves.

[Vuk]

Your serious about this guff right Russia has not a hope of conquering Europe.

Russia would seem to go well early on but thats because the terrain is flat and ideal for invasion in Eastern Europe but the more southerly sector would present a far more easily defendable frontier for European armies. This would send Russian forces into a drive through Germany as they would follow the easiest terrain for there armour but then Britain could act as an unsinkable aircraft carrier to hit back with airpower at the Russian rear. Finally France and Spain would then push into Western Germany to meet the invasion while Russia would have to divide its forces to ensure Scandinavian forces did not sweep into Finland and threaten Russian baltic ports.

I would lay a hundred at the bookies that a straight fight just between either France or Britain against Russia would end with Russian defeat.

You are only factoring in conventional forces, AND you are ignoring the fact that Europeans would rather surrender than fight a sustained war. Why do people always like to underestimate Russia?

So, you're saying my cellar is filled thanks to your insanely expensive army shooting some starved Arabs in some far away country?

Thank you, Vuk

And I do value freedom, not so sure about Freedom (tm), though.

Also, last time I watched the news, there weren't Russian tanks driving through the streets of Paris or Brussels, so I guess your information about an ongoing Russian invasion is incorrect.

You always characterize sacred words.
When did I say that there was an ongoing invasion?

About the size:

Country Average Male Height

Netherlands 182.5 cm
Denmark 181.5 cm
Switzerland 180.5 cm
Germany 180.2 cm
Croatia 180.0 cm
Norway 180.0 cm
Sweden 179.6 cm
Iran 178.7 cm
Austria 178.2 cm
Finland 178.2 cm
Czech Republic 178.0 cm
Romania 178.0 cm
South Africa 177.4 cm
Zimbabwe 177.2 cm
Australia 177.0 cm
Canada 177.0 cm
United Kingdom 177.0 cm
Greece 176.8 cm
France 176.6 cm
Ukraine 176.5 cm
Iraq 176.3 cm
Lebanon 176.2 cm
Ireland 176.1 cm
Zambia 176.0 cm
Russia 175.9 cm
Belgium 175.6 cm
United States 175.5 cm
Uzbekistan 175.4 cm
Poland 175.3 cm
Egypt 175.0 cm
New Zealand 175.0
Senegal 175.0 cm
Portugal 174.6 cm
Saudi Arabia 174.6 cm
Argentina 174.4 cm
Uruguay 174.3 cm
Brazil 174.0 cm
Cuba 174.0 cm
Peru 173.8 cm
Thailand 173.6 cm
Spain 173.4 cm
Korea, South 173.3 cm
Paraguay 173.1 cm
Syria 173.0 cm
Chile 173.0 cm
Morocco 173.0 cm
Turkey 172.5 cm
Tunisia 172.3 cm
Colombia 172.3 cm
Algeria 172.2 cm
Mexico 171.8 cm
Cameroon 171.0 cm
Indonesia 170.0 cm
China 169.7 cm
Pakistan 169.3 cm
Japan 168.3 cm
Mongolia 168.0 cm

So it would seem that the French in average are in matter of fact taller then Americans. I wonder what stereotype we should debunk next?

I am not talking about height. The French people are saw were plenty tall...they just looked like toothpicks...or Jews in a concentration camp. They had no muscle on them at all. That is what I mean by size, and what I mean by fitness is their ability to work hard under trying conditions. I know lots of buffed up kids who work out and run all the time, who cannot do farm work at all, because they would get winded in the first few seconds. The same fitness that enables you to work well enables you to fight well. A hard working population will be a hard fighting population. Do you know how many stupid, body building dorks I know who I can wipe the floor with? Being fit has more to do with the quality of your muscle and the good muscle memory you have than how many pounds you can lift.

Are you drunk?

Did you really just say American bodies are fitter than European ones?

Most Americans can't run 400m much less do anything you just posted. Tough people who can cope with hardships? Most Americans can't get control of there own bodies and waddle around crushing there organs under fat and diabetes.

Most Americans do not take care of there bodies mentally or physically. No attempt is made to learn or excersise simply to wallow.

The fact you actually belive the above post is sad not surprising but sad none the less.

Being a pencil necked dork who can run 400m means nothing if you are so pathetic that you cannot lift an ammo can! (never mind run with it) I trained martial arts with people from the US, Western Europe, and Central Europe, and I can tell you there is a big difference. The highest level of fighting fitness I saw was in Central Europe, then in the US, and the Western Europeans were pathetic.

Do you know something quite fascinating about endurance? In terms of resistance to true hardship, like famine, people with a lower calory intake will out-survive those who require a larger one. A grisly example of this is to be found in this book, where a mother outlived her 20 something boxer son who could simply not get enough food to sustain his athletic and resource hungry body.

Plus, you big oafish americans make larger targets.

Yes, but you need larger people who can work to produce grain. Right now America can easily produce enough grain to feed itself and its allies if there was ever a sustained war. Pathetic, skinny, lazy people who cannot work may take less food to feed, but will not be able to produce any for themselves.

[Furunculus]

You are only factoring in conventional forces, AND you are ignoring the fact that Europeans would rather surrender than fight a sustained war. Why do people always like to underestimate Russia?

because, militarily, it is a wreck.

never again will russia have the ability to pose an existential (conventional) threat to europe, and there would be no point nuking it either because it has not the resources to consolidate its victory, presupposing it survived a second strike itself.

russia can bully its little neighbours, but that is it.

[Vuk]

because, militarily, it is a wreck.

never again will russia have the ability to pose an existential (conventional) threat to europe, and there would be no point nuking it either because it has not the resources to consolidate its victory, presupposing it survived a second strike itself.

russia can bully its little neighbours, but that is it.

lol, I think that you are underestimating them, and the fact that they would most likely have China as an ally. They do not even have to occupy most of the countries as long as they get they own regimes in power, and use the resources of the country to suppress itself.

[Peasant Phill]

... Pathetic, skinny, lazy people who cannot work ...

How I love a determined nationalist to provide a laugh. You do realize your amusing most of the posters in this thread.
You're just using prejudices and anecdotal 'evidence' to prove a point that no one really cares about. Sure, Americans are the superior people, see if I care.

Now can we go back to the more interesting subject and discus the ethics behind 'policing' the world and how to do this.

[Megas Methuselah]

Vuk, you're not an American. I suggest you log off the forum and stop getting worked up over all this, man. You already had a freakin stroke, this is unhealthy.

[gaelic cowboy]

You are only factoring in conventional forces, AND you are ignoring the fact that Europeans would rather surrender than fight a sustained war. Why do people always like to underestimate Russia?

your overestimating the Russian ability to meddle in Western Europe to the extent that even Stalin would never have dreamed of. Wow Europe cant fight a sustained war well neither can Russia fight a sustained war like there was in WW2 there all far too dependent on technology than they ever. The war would have to be short maybe a year at best before the inventories would run out and the industry would need to fire up to replenish the army but the industrial heartland of each side would have sustained severe damage most likely causing someone to collapse and my money is on Russia.

And yes of course I'm talking conventional forces how else would they fight a European army you seem to be a bit obsessed by nukes well let me break it to you there a terrible use of millitary hardware and money really. Any nuclear option by Russia would end in the destruction of Russia by NATO plus the world obviously thats why the Nuclear option is not worth discussing here who would be left to surrender too.

lol, I think that you are underestimating them, and the fact that they would most likely have China as an ally. They do not even have to occupy most of the countries as long as they get they own regimes in power, and use the resources of the country to suppress itself.

China is not gonna be Russia's friend they will be far more interested in profiting from Russian weakness in Central Asia after the war which you seem to believe is inevitable actually happens.

You keep saying Europe would surrender but I see no convincing argument from your posts so far while plenty have given plenty reasons why Russia could never profit from a war.

Nazi Germany was unable to stop attacks by ordinary Frenchmen why would Russia and it's puppets be anymore successful they would have to exterminate everyone to stop them, however by trying to kill everyone they end up inheriting a continent with no people to tax and there really are no resources worth exterminting 300/400 million people for unless there is a stock of Element Zero underneath Paris I never heard of.

[Fragony]

War between Russia and China WILL come, some Russian territories are already Chinese in their schoolbooks, yeah these ones.

[Kagemusha]

I am not talking about height. The French people are saw were plenty tall...they just looked like toothpicks...or Jews in a concentration camp. They had no muscle on them at all. That is what I mean by size, and what I mean by fitness is their ability to work hard under trying conditions. I know lots of buffed up kids who work out and run all the time, who cannot do farm work at all, because they would get winded in the first few seconds. The same fitness that enables you to work well enables you to fight well. A hard working population will be a hard fighting population. Do you know how many stupid, body building dorks I know who I can wipe the floor with? Being fit has more to do with the quality of your muscle and the good muscle memory you have than how many pounds you can lift.




Being a pencil necked dork who can run 400m means nothing if you are so pathetic that you cannot lift an ammo can! (never mind run with it) I trained martial arts with people from the US, Western Europe, and Central Europe, and I can tell you there is a big difference. The highest level of fighting fitness I saw was in Central Europe, then in the US, and the Western Europeans were pathetic.

And would these epitomies of martial prowess be by any sense for example Serbians? I also have to wonder do you have any kind of military training as you so easily can judge entire nations as being unfit for one? Atleast where i happen to live we have this wonderful thing called mandatory military service and most of us pencil necks have achieved to pass it quite all right.

Yes, but you need larger people who can work to produce grain. Right now America can easily produce enough grain to feed itself and its allies if there was ever a sustained war. Pathetic, skinny, lazy people who cannot work may take less food to feed, but will not be able to produce any for themselves.

Maybe it has somehow escaped you, but in matter of fact EU is the worlds third largest grain producer. I would suggest you to drop your stereotypes a bit and research bit more before you start making statements like these in future.

[rory_20_uk]

Due to the evidence of microcephaly on this thread, even I have lost the will to challenge these... uninformed views.

I have no problem with discussing almost any topic, but preferably with someone not showing evidence of far too much consanguinity in the not too distant past.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yes, but you need larger people who can work to produce grain. Right now America can easily produce enough grain to feed itself and its allies if there was ever a sustained war. Pathetic, skinny, lazy people who cannot work may take less food to feed, but will not be able to produce any for themselves.

wait what did you say larger people to produce grain you do realise that even a small country like Ireland produces waaaaayyy more food than we could possibly ever eat, thats why Kerry Group and other Irish companies like them are massive overseas.

Meanwhile in Europe we will get along just fine with high tech farm machinery to produce our food


Only in Third World countries do they need gangs of strong backs to produce the food they eat and they still don't produce enough to eat. Thats why in the developed world we use science allied with machinery in conjunction with proper business and accountancy methods to produce the food for our tables.



Please stop your embarrassing yourself now there is no way this is your actual opinion your obviously just Trolling but it is hilarious to read it all the same.

[Strike For The South]

Being a pencil necked dork who can run 400m means nothing if you are so pathetic that you cannot lift an ammo can! (never mind run with it) I trained martial arts with people from the US, Western Europe, and Central Europe, and I can tell you there is a big difference. The highest level of fighting fitness I saw was in Central Europe, then in the US, and the Western Europeans were pathetic.

Playing karate has no bearing on phyiscal fitness. I mean I've seen fat people do it in jeans

I am not talking about height. The French people are saw were plenty tall...they just looked like toothpicks...or Jews in a concentration camp. They had no muscle on them at all. That is what I mean by size, and what I mean by fitness is their ability to work hard under trying conditions. I know lots of buffed up kids who work out and run all the time, who cannot do farm work at all, because they would get winded in the first few seconds. The same fitness that enables you to work well enables you to fight well. A hard working population will be a hard fighting population. Do you know how many stupid, body building dorks I know who I can wipe the floor with? Being fit has more to do with the quality of your muscle and the good muscle memory you have than how many pounds you can lift.

LOL, Going into your schools REC every 3rd day to get a chest pump does not a serious lifter make. If that was the case everyone who has ever worn a tap out t-shirt is an MMA fighter.

I also doubt you have ever actually been on a farm considering your idea of farmwork would ring true for an antebellum cotton feild....maybe even then the slaves were usually to tired to fight.

I am begining to think you are trolling. Which is fine because you trolling is better than you being wrong.

[Beskar]

Also, Europes GDP is higher than the US.

[Meneldil]

Racialist BS

It's funny when someone living in a country where 1/3 of the adult population is obese calls European 'unfit' to [whatever]. Since you're playing the stereotypes card, I was baffled by the amount of obese people encountered in North America. I'm sure those will do great soldiers *rolleyes*.

War is so 20th century.

As for the topic itself, europe is well able to defend itself, and to project power. France and UK have enough nukes to make Russia (who would never dare to attack, except in some american nutjobs' sick mind) think three times before making a move. As for China attacking us, it's a joke. And the "arabs", priceless :D

We don't need any more power, but we shall keep your military bases. I'm sure they support local economies. Thank you for it.

[PanzerJaeger]

It's funny when someone living in a country where 1/3 of the adult population is obese calls European 'unfit' to [whatever]. Since you're playing the stereotypes card, I was baffled by the amount of obese people encountered in North America. I'm sure those will do great soldiers *rolleyes*.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

You'll note the majority of Americans don't agree with the premise of this thread or some of the 'judgments' made about Europeans by a select few (2) members.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

It's funny when someone living in a country where 1/3 of the adult population is obese

A natural result of having the best cuisine in the world.

[Tellos Athenaios]

but size does matter.

If you are going to talk stereotypes:

The French by virtue of their small size and excitable nature combined with superior écoles will be excellent military commanders.
The Vikings will provide us with physical fitness the likes of which will make the Americans realise how very fortunate they are that Eric the Red et all kicked the habit.
The Germans will ensure our military machine runs efficiently.
The Italians that we have good food.
Dutch and English will ensure that there is money and weapons for all.

You stand no chance.

Seriously, though: size matters, but you get tall French (I've seen a couple) as well as small Americans. On a population of millions such averages matter little: you simply get to be selective. In fact, on average you'll find the tallest people in Scandinavia and the Netherlands -- but incidentally some of the most aggressively downsized armies are to be found there as well.

[Andres]

If you are going to talk stereotypes:

The French by virtue of their small size and excitable nature combined with superior écoles will be excellent military commanders.
The Vikings will provide us with physical fitness the likes of which will make the Americans realise how very fortunate they are that Eric the Red et all kicked the habit.
The Germans will ensure our military machine runs efficiently.
The Italians that we have good food.
Dutch and English will ensure that there is money and weapons for all.

Belgians will stay home and drink beer to ensure, ehm, things.

[Strike For The South]

Do you really think that strength and physical fitness are not important to combat? Combat tests your body's limits to the max, and the limits of American bodies are a lot higher than that of European bodies. The average European probably could not even carry a wounded comrade off the field.
Just as important is the work on the homefront to support the war effort. Large size and strength is not only a product of hard work, but essential for the type of work that needs to be done in the case of a sustained war.
The Russians, Chinese, Indians, and Americans are tough people who can cope with hardships, but Europeans who do not even work half of the year would shrivel up and die.
I hate hurt your feelings Rory, but size does matter.

Are you drunk?

Did you really just say American bodies are fitter than European ones?

Most Americans can't run 400m much less do anything you just posted. Tough people who can cope with hardships? Most Americans can't get control of there own bodies and waddle around crushing there organs under fat and diabetes.

Most Americans do not take care of there bodies mentally or physically. No attempt is made to learn or excersise simply to wallow.

The fact you actually belive the above post is sad not surprising but sad none the less.

[al Roumi]

Are you drunk?

Did you really just say American bodies are fitter than European ones?

Most Americans can't run 400m much less do anything you just posted. Tough people who can cope with hardships? Most Americans can't get control of there own bodies and waddle around crushing there organs under fat and diabetes.

Most Americans do not take care of there bodies mentally or physically. No attempt is made to learn or excersise simply to wallow.

The fact you actually belive the above post is sad not surprising but sad none the less.

And I thought that was just stereotypes!

[Strike For The South]

And I thought that was just stereotypes!

You don't know the half of it son. The real kick in the nuts though, is that most still strut around brimming (weezing?) with confidence.

That's what you get when you live in a nation descendant from peasents

[al Roumi]

You don't know the half of it son. The real kick in the nuts though, is that most still strut around brimming (weezing?) with confidence.

What is saturated fat?
http://www.jamieoliver.com/campaigns...ood-revolution

That's what you get when you live in a nation descendant from peasents

I'm afraid I resent this. Peasants are great. They have nice ruddy cheeks and quaint blood feuds. Europe, which as we all know is the pinnacle of civilisation and social progress, is itself based on the ruddy cheeked fellows. Where else do the two pillars of society (cheese and a petty mindset) originate from?

[caravel]

This thread is now starting to remind me of one of those "my country's army is better than your country's army" threads that you would expect to see in a gaming forum prior to the launch of the next in the series...

[Fragony]

This thread is now starting to remind me of one of those "my country's army is better than your country's army" threads that you would expect to see in a gaming forum prior to the launch of the next in the series...

Yes but I still think we aproach the concept of war diffently, it's something that comes to you and leaves huge scars to Europeans, aka absolutely and ugly serious business that should never be underestimated. I think the European is much more dangerous, much more hardened, it's in our DNA.