Why can't Europe defend itself?

[Andres]

I think visiting some cemeteries in Europe would explain why we're not so keen on waging war anymore far better than a long post written by me, Sasaki.

When is a regime bad enough that war is a better option?

How about the possiblity that Europe actually learned something from those two major conflicts that destroyed our continent and made countless Europeans, soldiers and civilians, suffer? Not so long ago, we were all at each other's throats, killing and destroying each other. Maybe, just maybe, we euro weenie pacifists afraid of policing the world by force, have been doing something right the last few decades? The mere fact that you, an American, are now talking about "Europe" and "Europeans" says a lot more than you can possibly imagine. Apparently, people who were murdering each other as a hobby not longer than 65 years ago, are, in the world outside Europe, seen as a homogeneous group.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

'Course. Does that mean you need to maintain an overly large army? No.

Is the US army overly large? It is smaller than the EU combined armies, and similar in proportion to france and italy...we just spend much more money, percentage wise.

I think visiting some cemeteries in Europe would explain why we're not so keen on waging war anymore far better than a long post written by me, Sasaki.

When is a regime bad enough that war is a better option?

How about the possiblity that Europe actually learned something from those two major conflicts that destroyed our continent and made countless Europeans, soldiers and civilians, suffer? Not so long ago, we were all at each other's throats, killing and destroying each other. Maybe, just maybe, we euro weenie pacifists afraid of policing the world by force, have been doing something right the last few decades? The mere fact that you, an American, are now talking about "Europe" and "Europeans" says a lot more than you can possibly imagine. Apparently, people who were murdering each other as a hobby not longer than 65 years ago, are, in the world outside Europe, seen as a homogeneous group.

I've been to gettysburg :p

I don't think the europeans are afraid of policing the world. I think they would rather let the US deal with the expense and the messy (and often unpopular) business of deciding whether a situation justifies war.

[CBR]

I don't think the europeans are afraid of policing the world. I think they would rather let the US deal with the expense and the messy (and often unpopular) business of deciding whether a situation justifies war.

The French have been doing policing in their former colonies several times. But for true global power projection one needs a fleet that has 10+ carriers with the airpower, amphibious and support elements that goes along with such big ships. No European power is capable of doing that plus they have priorities that USA does not have like needing "brown water" ships for local defense.

Also having a bunch of smaller nations all wanting to have a well-rounded defense might also not be the most cost effective way. But if a nation does not want to be completely dependent of other nations for basic stuff, then that problem is not going away.

But changes are happening e.g. the Dutch and Danish navies are phasing out smaller ships and replacing them with larger and more capable ships. The Danish Navy no longer have any subs, missile boats or corvettes: the good old Cold War scenario of Danish and West German navies fighting in the western Baltic and local Danish waters no longer makes sense.

[Husar]

Well, to make the Americans surrender the Russians will just have to flash some boobies.

But I have to say this is the funniest thread I've read here in a while.

So you think if these really healthy people from smogland support the Russians they will conquer Europe together because Europeans are just a bunch of surrender monkeys? You accuse us of underestimating the Russians, yet claim to know that we would just surrender at the sight of the mighty russian army, that's pretty hilarious.
And concerning weapon developments, Europe is not all that far behind the US, in some areas we're even ahead, you may have stealth fighters, but Norway and Sweden have stealth ships for quite some time already, the US only has some prototypes in that regard, and a planned destryer that is so expensive that even with your big budget you can only afford a few, not really enough to replace all the other carrier escorts. Then there is all the "waste" of money going on in the US, the Comanche program was cancelled after many years, some submarine program was cancelled after many years, your army still uses M-16s whereas the german army has already replaced the G-3 with the G-36. We have our delays and screwups as well, but you're still using european armour and guns on your only main battle tank, quite surprising since I thought you have the best stuff in everything?

This is not some america bashing, I'm just saying that the budget alone does not make your scientists any more creative or clever than ours and being able to eat more burgers or drink more vodka does not make one more battle hardy than someone else in a modern war. Maybe the US thinks policing in Arabia is necessary but then again to a large extent the whole terrorism thing is based on the resistance against US influence in the region, that is why they bombed the twin towers and not the Eiffel tower, isn't it?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I was getting more than a little upset, then I read more carefully and found that you were saying 175.5cm was for average HEIGHT.

I was about to feel very cheated.....

[Beskar]

Maybe the US thinks policing in Arabia is necessary but then again to a large extent the whole terrorism thing is based on the resistance against US influence in the region, that is why they bombed the twin towers and not the Eiffel tower, isn't it?

Be careful, last time this was brought up, a bunch of American posters boo'd it and conducted slanderous attacks against such persons saying they are sprouting Muslim extremist propaganda. (cue: related threads on 9/11, such as GZM)

I was getting more than a little upset, then I read more carefully and found that you were saying 175.5cm was for average HEIGHT.

17.5cm isn't too bad. Apparently in Japan, it is closer to 10cm

[Brenus]

“Being a pencil necked dork who can run 400m means nothing if you are so pathetic that you cannot lift an ammo can! (never mind run with it) I trained martial arts with people from the US, Western Europe, and Central Europe, and I can tell you there is a big difference. The highest level of fighting fitness I saw was in Central Europe, then in the US, and the Western Europeans were pathetic.”

Hum… What’s your time running 15 km with back pack at 30 kg and weapon? Mine was 1h34mm, and I was average plus.
Did you ever lift an ammo can, and which one? A 20 mm canon ammunition is not the same than a 17.5 or 7.62…

Then I wanted to see you in a real training, when you sleep 4 hours in 3 days, crawling in icy mud, etc…
I saw many martial Art “experts” collapsing and crying for mummy because “muscles don’t float” (The Guardian, with Costner) and lack of Stamina.

Good rant, carry on…

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

What is the mean collar size of US Trolls? Do they tend to be more "warlike" than Trolls of other ethnicities?

Because we do the work of Europe for them.

- Europe has taken an approach of bilateral economic ties/strings which can be leveraged after the colonies were dismantled (so military bases were out of the question to begin with). In addition Europe maintains a military of similar technological capabilities as that of the USA, but far smaller in raw numbers. (Incidentally a lot of the USA budget on military expenses ends up in Europe due to the USA's main suppliers of some of the tech being European.)

And allow Eastern Europe to be boss around because they can suffer rising heating costs in the winter if Russia plays hard ball?
- Primary threats to Europe are gone, so the cold war style armies are too. We find it saves us a lot of money, and collectively time that we can spend on something worth doing.

Like retiring when you 50 years old and crying when you have to go back to work when you bankrupt your nation?




- Apart from that it's laughable that either China or Russia should invade their primary export markets.

Ever think of China invading Taiwan to control that part of the sea?

And why was it when the Dutch and Belgians I believe had the chance to stop the genocide in Rwanda, Kofi Annan and the French told them to back off, and meanwhile the French was supplying the Murderers. Check out the Worse then War book, might learn something.


Where was Europe's strong handing when the Balkan wars broke out? Took many years before anything remotely got done.

When Geogria got invaded in 2008, All the European nations complained....... But no help. Not from Germany, England, France, Italy, Poland, Ukraine..... That's really nice. .

[gaelic cowboy]

When Geogria got invaded in 2008, All the European nations complained....... But no help. Not from Germany, England, France, Italy, Poland, Ukraine..... That's really nice. .

Hmm seem to remember the USA did not start WW3 over Georgia either or maybe I missed the bulletin on Sky News.

It amazes me that Americans cant see that US troops are in Europe to further American interests not European despite what right wing US politiians might say your army chiefs are quite happy to be the lynchpin of European security through NATO.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

And you Europeans are different how again?

[gaelic cowboy]

And you Europeans are different how again?

What????????

Ah I get it you think because the US is the preeminent power in NATO this somehow means Europe cannot defend itself. Don't be silly America has global interests therefore it has a bigger military. It does not make a bit of sense either politically or militarily for Europe to try to match the US we have no threats here to our security.

[Vladimir]

*sigh*

If you can't fight with your friends, who can you fight with?

[Tellos Athenaios]

@Warman: Not terribly different no. Just that much more eager to pursue economic/diplomatic alternatives, where the USA is more willing to do the Scrapheap Challenge. Which means nothing in terms of can Europe defends itself (it can) and by extension means that our usual working methods do not require to spend that much on an army. Also, it might help to understand that Europe i comprised of some truly independent nations with their own foreign policy, military, economy etc. as opposed to the semi-autonomous regions that the S in USA stand for.

Oh by the way when it comes to finance, it's the USA which owes Europe a lot of money rather than the reverse -- mainly because a lot of the European debt is to other European creditors (prime example of that being Italy). I.e. as it stands it is the USA living off European (and Chinese and Japanese) credit. USA have been doing this since your beloved Reagan came to power, btw.

[Brenus]

“French was supplying the Murderers. Check out the Worse then War book, might learn something.” Absolute crap. The French did supply machete?
So learn something before to put something on writing and it is double-check your info and sources.
There is no one shade of proof of this allegation but it still going I can see.

“Where was Europe's strong handing when the Balkan wars broke out? Took many years before anything remotely got done.” They were trying, some of them, to prevent an Ethnic Cleansing and the resurgence of Nationalism.
They failed, and the US supported the plan dividing lands following ethnicities and encouraged ethic cleansing… Well done.

“When Geogria got invaded in 2008, All the European nations complained”
Except of course that Georgia was not invaded but started the aggression in shelling Refugees Camps.

“Took many years before anything remotely got done.” Agree. At least the Russian stop the Georgian President to play his little Tudjman…

I think that was the reason why NATO bombed the Serbs because it was what they were doing against the Albanian from Kosovo…
So what is good for US is not for Russia?

[Vladimir]

What? So nothing on my European hardbut penetrator?