Why can't Europe defend itself?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

'Course. Does that mean you need to maintain an overly large army? No.

Is the US army overly large? It is smaller than the EU combined armies, and similar in proportion to france and italy...we just spend much more money, percentage wise.

I think visiting some cemeteries in Europe would explain why we're not so keen on waging war anymore far better than a long post written by me, Sasaki.

When is a regime bad enough that war is a better option?

How about the possiblity that Europe actually learned something from those two major conflicts that destroyed our continent and made countless Europeans, soldiers and civilians, suffer? Not so long ago, we were all at each other's throats, killing and destroying each other. Maybe, just maybe, we euro weenie pacifists afraid of policing the world by force, have been doing something right the last few decades? The mere fact that you, an American, are now talking about "Europe" and "Europeans" says a lot more than you can possibly imagine. Apparently, people who were murdering each other as a hobby not longer than 65 years ago, are, in the world outside Europe, seen as a homogeneous group.

I've been to gettysburg :p

I don't think the europeans are afraid of policing the world. I think they would rather let the US deal with the expense and the messy (and often unpopular) business of deciding whether a situation justifies war.

[CBR]

I don't think the europeans are afraid of policing the world. I think they would rather let the US deal with the expense and the messy (and often unpopular) business of deciding whether a situation justifies war.

The French have been doing policing in their former colonies several times. But for true global power projection one needs a fleet that has 10+ carriers with the airpower, amphibious and support elements that goes along with such big ships. No European power is capable of doing that plus they have priorities that USA does not have like needing "brown water" ships for local defense.

Also having a bunch of smaller nations all wanting to have a well-rounded defense might also not be the most cost effective way. But if a nation does not want to be completely dependent of other nations for basic stuff, then that problem is not going away.

But changes are happening e.g. the Dutch and Danish navies are phasing out smaller ships and replacing them with larger and more capable ships. The Danish Navy no longer have any subs, missile boats or corvettes: the good old Cold War scenario of Danish and West German navies fighting in the western Baltic and local Danish waters no longer makes sense.

[Husar]

Well, to make the Americans surrender the Russians will just have to flash some boobies.

But I have to say this is the funniest thread I've read here in a while.

So you think if these really healthy people from smogland support the Russians they will conquer Europe together because Europeans are just a bunch of surrender monkeys? You accuse us of underestimating the Russians, yet claim to know that we would just surrender at the sight of the mighty russian army, that's pretty hilarious.
And concerning weapon developments, Europe is not all that far behind the US, in some areas we're even ahead, you may have stealth fighters, but Norway and Sweden have stealth ships for quite some time already, the US only has some prototypes in that regard, and a planned destryer that is so expensive that even with your big budget you can only afford a few, not really enough to replace all the other carrier escorts. Then there is all the "waste" of money going on in the US, the Comanche program was cancelled after many years, some submarine program was cancelled after many years, your army still uses M-16s whereas the german army has already replaced the G-3 with the G-36. We have our delays and screwups as well, but you're still using european armour and guns on your only main battle tank, quite surprising since I thought you have the best stuff in everything?

This is not some america bashing, I'm just saying that the budget alone does not make your scientists any more creative or clever than ours and being able to eat more burgers or drink more vodka does not make one more battle hardy than someone else in a modern war. Maybe the US thinks policing in Arabia is necessary but then again to a large extent the whole terrorism thing is based on the resistance against US influence in the region, that is why they bombed the twin towers and not the Eiffel tower, isn't it?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I was getting more than a little upset, then I read more carefully and found that you were saying 175.5cm was for average HEIGHT.

I was about to feel very cheated.....

[Beskar]

Maybe the US thinks policing in Arabia is necessary but then again to a large extent the whole terrorism thing is based on the resistance against US influence in the region, that is why they bombed the twin towers and not the Eiffel tower, isn't it?

Be careful, last time this was brought up, a bunch of American posters boo'd it and conducted slanderous attacks against such persons saying they are sprouting Muslim extremist propaganda. (cue: related threads on 9/11, such as GZM)

I was getting more than a little upset, then I read more carefully and found that you were saying 175.5cm was for average HEIGHT.

17.5cm isn't too bad. Apparently in Japan, it is closer to 10cm

[Brenus]

“Being a pencil necked dork who can run 400m means nothing if you are so pathetic that you cannot lift an ammo can! (never mind run with it) I trained martial arts with people from the US, Western Europe, and Central Europe, and I can tell you there is a big difference. The highest level of fighting fitness I saw was in Central Europe, then in the US, and the Western Europeans were pathetic.”

Hum… What’s your time running 15 km with back pack at 30 kg and weapon? Mine was 1h34mm, and I was average plus.
Did you ever lift an ammo can, and which one? A 20 mm canon ammunition is not the same than a 17.5 or 7.62…

Then I wanted to see you in a real training, when you sleep 4 hours in 3 days, crawling in icy mud, etc…
I saw many martial Art “experts” collapsing and crying for mummy because “muscles don’t float” (The Guardian, with Costner) and lack of Stamina.

Good rant, carry on…