Why can't Europe defend itself?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

'Course. Does that mean you need to maintain an overly large army? No.

Is the US army overly large? It is smaller than the EU combined armies, and similar in proportion to france and italy...we just spend much more money, percentage wise.

I think visiting some cemeteries in Europe would explain why we're not so keen on waging war anymore far better than a long post written by me, Sasaki.

When is a regime bad enough that war is a better option?

How about the possiblity that Europe actually learned something from those two major conflicts that destroyed our continent and made countless Europeans, soldiers and civilians, suffer? Not so long ago, we were all at each other's throats, killing and destroying each other. Maybe, just maybe, we euro weenie pacifists afraid of policing the world by force, have been doing something right the last few decades? The mere fact that you, an American, are now talking about "Europe" and "Europeans" says a lot more than you can possibly imagine. Apparently, people who were murdering each other as a hobby not longer than 65 years ago, are, in the world outside Europe, seen as a homogeneous group.

I've been to gettysburg :p

I don't think the europeans are afraid of policing the world. I think they would rather let the US deal with the expense and the messy (and often unpopular) business of deciding whether a situation justifies war.

[Vuk]

Your serious about this guff right Russia has not a hope of conquering Europe.

Russia would seem to go well early on but thats because the terrain is flat and ideal for invasion in Eastern Europe but the more southerly sector would present a far more easily defendable frontier for European armies. This would send Russian forces into a drive through Germany as they would follow the easiest terrain for there armour but then Britain could act as an unsinkable aircraft carrier to hit back with airpower at the Russian rear. Finally France and Spain would then push into Western Germany to meet the invasion while Russia would have to divide its forces to ensure Scandinavian forces did not sweep into Finland and threaten Russian baltic ports.

I would lay a hundred at the bookies that a straight fight just between either France or Britain against Russia would end with Russian defeat.

You are only factoring in conventional forces, AND you are ignoring the fact that Europeans would rather surrender than fight a sustained war. Why do people always like to underestimate Russia?

So, you're saying my cellar is filled thanks to your insanely expensive army shooting some starved Arabs in some far away country?

Thank you, Vuk

And I do value freedom, not so sure about Freedom (tm), though.

Also, last time I watched the news, there weren't Russian tanks driving through the streets of Paris or Brussels, so I guess your information about an ongoing Russian invasion is incorrect.

You always characterize sacred words.
When did I say that there was an ongoing invasion?

About the size:

Country Average Male Height

Netherlands 182.5 cm
Denmark 181.5 cm
Switzerland 180.5 cm
Germany 180.2 cm
Croatia 180.0 cm
Norway 180.0 cm
Sweden 179.6 cm
Iran 178.7 cm
Austria 178.2 cm
Finland 178.2 cm
Czech Republic 178.0 cm
Romania 178.0 cm
South Africa 177.4 cm
Zimbabwe 177.2 cm
Australia 177.0 cm
Canada 177.0 cm
United Kingdom 177.0 cm
Greece 176.8 cm
France 176.6 cm
Ukraine 176.5 cm
Iraq 176.3 cm
Lebanon 176.2 cm
Ireland 176.1 cm
Zambia 176.0 cm
Russia 175.9 cm
Belgium 175.6 cm
United States 175.5 cm
Uzbekistan 175.4 cm
Poland 175.3 cm
Egypt 175.0 cm
New Zealand 175.0
Senegal 175.0 cm
Portugal 174.6 cm
Saudi Arabia 174.6 cm
Argentina 174.4 cm
Uruguay 174.3 cm
Brazil 174.0 cm
Cuba 174.0 cm
Peru 173.8 cm
Thailand 173.6 cm
Spain 173.4 cm
Korea, South 173.3 cm
Paraguay 173.1 cm
Syria 173.0 cm
Chile 173.0 cm
Morocco 173.0 cm
Turkey 172.5 cm
Tunisia 172.3 cm
Colombia 172.3 cm
Algeria 172.2 cm
Mexico 171.8 cm
Cameroon 171.0 cm
Indonesia 170.0 cm
China 169.7 cm
Pakistan 169.3 cm
Japan 168.3 cm
Mongolia 168.0 cm

So it would seem that the French in average are in matter of fact taller then Americans. I wonder what stereotype we should debunk next?

I am not talking about height. The French people are saw were plenty tall...they just looked like toothpicks...or Jews in a concentration camp. They had no muscle on them at all. That is what I mean by size, and what I mean by fitness is their ability to work hard under trying conditions. I know lots of buffed up kids who work out and run all the time, who cannot do farm work at all, because they would get winded in the first few seconds. The same fitness that enables you to work well enables you to fight well. A hard working population will be a hard fighting population. Do you know how many stupid, body building dorks I know who I can wipe the floor with? Being fit has more to do with the quality of your muscle and the good muscle memory you have than how many pounds you can lift.

Are you drunk?

Did you really just say American bodies are fitter than European ones?

Most Americans can't run 400m much less do anything you just posted. Tough people who can cope with hardships? Most Americans can't get control of there own bodies and waddle around crushing there organs under fat and diabetes.

Most Americans do not take care of there bodies mentally or physically. No attempt is made to learn or excersise simply to wallow.

The fact you actually belive the above post is sad not surprising but sad none the less.

Being a pencil necked dork who can run 400m means nothing if you are so pathetic that you cannot lift an ammo can! (never mind run with it) I trained martial arts with people from the US, Western Europe, and Central Europe, and I can tell you there is a big difference. The highest level of fighting fitness I saw was in Central Europe, then in the US, and the Western Europeans were pathetic.

Do you know something quite fascinating about endurance? In terms of resistance to true hardship, like famine, people with a lower calory intake will out-survive those who require a larger one. A grisly example of this is to be found in this book, where a mother outlived her 20 something boxer son who could simply not get enough food to sustain his athletic and resource hungry body.

Plus, you big oafish americans make larger targets.

Yes, but you need larger people who can work to produce grain. Right now America can easily produce enough grain to feed itself and its allies if there was ever a sustained war. Pathetic, skinny, lazy people who cannot work may take less food to feed, but will not be able to produce any for themselves.

[Furunculus]

You are only factoring in conventional forces, AND you are ignoring the fact that Europeans would rather surrender than fight a sustained war. Why do people always like to underestimate Russia?

because, militarily, it is a wreck.

never again will russia have the ability to pose an existential (conventional) threat to europe, and there would be no point nuking it either because it has not the resources to consolidate its victory, presupposing it survived a second strike itself.

russia can bully its little neighbours, but that is it.

[Vuk]

because, militarily, it is a wreck.

never again will russia have the ability to pose an existential (conventional) threat to europe, and there would be no point nuking it either because it has not the resources to consolidate its victory, presupposing it survived a second strike itself.

russia can bully its little neighbours, but that is it.

lol, I think that you are underestimating them, and the fact that they would most likely have China as an ally. They do not even have to occupy most of the countries as long as they get they own regimes in power, and use the resources of the country to suppress itself.

[Peasant Phill]

... Pathetic, skinny, lazy people who cannot work ...

How I love a determined nationalist to provide a laugh. You do realize your amusing most of the posters in this thread.
You're just using prejudices and anecdotal 'evidence' to prove a point that no one really cares about. Sure, Americans are the superior people, see if I care.

Now can we go back to the more interesting subject and discus the ethics behind 'policing' the world and how to do this.

[Megas Methuselah]

Vuk, you're not an American. I suggest you log off the forum and stop getting worked up over all this, man. You already had a freakin stroke, this is unhealthy.

[al Roumi]

Vuk, you're not an American. I suggest you log off the forum and stop getting worked up over all this, man. You already had a freakin stroke, this is unhealthy.

he's already had a stroke at the age of 13? God, that's terrible!

[Vladimir]

Actually considering this is over a population of millions with good statistical data, 1.1 cm is a *lot*... It suggests that the French are a lot healthier than the Americans (length is roughly a function of health, especially during childhood) with access to far superior food and living conditions.

If you Europeans knew anything you'd know that length isn't nearly as important as girth, and we have you at that!

[Fragony]

Ah, the Dangerous European. Interesting. I know a Dangerous European. He usually lies dangerously on his sofa, watching television and enjoying beer in a most threatening way.

What I mean is that we probably will be less shocked by atrocities. Should war come we know what to expect, extreme loss of life, whole cities completely destroyed. We didn't see any of it but the stories are still alive, we 'know' what it's going to be like. I don't believe a history of violence has no consequences, no matter how deeply burried.

[gaelic cowboy]

You are only factoring in conventional forces, AND you are ignoring the fact that Europeans would rather surrender than fight a sustained war. Why do people always like to underestimate Russia?

your overestimating the Russian ability to meddle in Western Europe to the extent that even Stalin would never have dreamed of. Wow Europe cant fight a sustained war well neither can Russia fight a sustained war like there was in WW2 there all far too dependent on technology than they ever. The war would have to be short maybe a year at best before the inventories would run out and the industry would need to fire up to replenish the army but the industrial heartland of each side would have sustained severe damage most likely causing someone to collapse and my money is on Russia.

And yes of course I'm talking conventional forces how else would they fight a European army you seem to be a bit obsessed by nukes well let me break it to you there a terrible use of millitary hardware and money really. Any nuclear option by Russia would end in the destruction of Russia by NATO plus the world obviously thats why the Nuclear option is not worth discussing here who would be left to surrender too.

lol, I think that you are underestimating them, and the fact that they would most likely have China as an ally. They do not even have to occupy most of the countries as long as they get they own regimes in power, and use the resources of the country to suppress itself.

China is not gonna be Russia's friend they will be far more interested in profiting from Russian weakness in Central Asia after the war which you seem to believe is inevitable actually happens.

You keep saying Europe would surrender but I see no convincing argument from your posts so far while plenty have given plenty reasons why Russia could never profit from a war.

Nazi Germany was unable to stop attacks by ordinary Frenchmen why would Russia and it's puppets be anymore successful they would have to exterminate everyone to stop them, however by trying to kill everyone they end up inheriting a continent with no people to tax and there really are no resources worth exterminting 300/400 million people for unless there is a stock of Element Zero underneath Paris I never heard of.

[Fragony]

War between Russia and China WILL come, some Russian territories are already Chinese in their schoolbooks, yeah these ones.

[CBR]

I don't think the europeans are afraid of policing the world. I think they would rather let the US deal with the expense and the messy (and often unpopular) business of deciding whether a situation justifies war.

The French have been doing policing in their former colonies several times. But for true global power projection one needs a fleet that has 10+ carriers with the airpower, amphibious and support elements that goes along with such big ships. No European power is capable of doing that plus they have priorities that USA does not have like needing "brown water" ships for local defense.

Also having a bunch of smaller nations all wanting to have a well-rounded defense might also not be the most cost effective way. But if a nation does not want to be completely dependent of other nations for basic stuff, then that problem is not going away.

But changes are happening e.g. the Dutch and Danish navies are phasing out smaller ships and replacing them with larger and more capable ships. The Danish Navy no longer have any subs, missile boats or corvettes: the good old Cold War scenario of Danish and West German navies fighting in the western Baltic and local Danish waters no longer makes sense.

[Husar]

Well, to make the Americans surrender the Russians will just have to flash some boobies.

But I have to say this is the funniest thread I've read here in a while.

So you think if these really healthy people from smogland support the Russians they will conquer Europe together because Europeans are just a bunch of surrender monkeys? You accuse us of underestimating the Russians, yet claim to know that we would just surrender at the sight of the mighty russian army, that's pretty hilarious.
And concerning weapon developments, Europe is not all that far behind the US, in some areas we're even ahead, you may have stealth fighters, but Norway and Sweden have stealth ships for quite some time already, the US only has some prototypes in that regard, and a planned destryer that is so expensive that even with your big budget you can only afford a few, not really enough to replace all the other carrier escorts. Then there is all the "waste" of money going on in the US, the Comanche program was cancelled after many years, some submarine program was cancelled after many years, your army still uses M-16s whereas the german army has already replaced the G-3 with the G-36. We have our delays and screwups as well, but you're still using european armour and guns on your only main battle tank, quite surprising since I thought you have the best stuff in everything?

This is not some america bashing, I'm just saying that the budget alone does not make your scientists any more creative or clever than ours and being able to eat more burgers or drink more vodka does not make one more battle hardy than someone else in a modern war. Maybe the US thinks policing in Arabia is necessary but then again to a large extent the whole terrorism thing is based on the resistance against US influence in the region, that is why they bombed the twin towers and not the Eiffel tower, isn't it?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I was getting more than a little upset, then I read more carefully and found that you were saying 175.5cm was for average HEIGHT.

I was about to feel very cheated.....

[Beskar]

Maybe the US thinks policing in Arabia is necessary but then again to a large extent the whole terrorism thing is based on the resistance against US influence in the region, that is why they bombed the twin towers and not the Eiffel tower, isn't it?

Be careful, last time this was brought up, a bunch of American posters boo'd it and conducted slanderous attacks against such persons saying they are sprouting Muslim extremist propaganda. (cue: related threads on 9/11, such as GZM)

I was getting more than a little upset, then I read more carefully and found that you were saying 175.5cm was for average HEIGHT.

17.5cm isn't too bad. Apparently in Japan, it is closer to 10cm

[Brenus]

“Being a pencil necked dork who can run 400m means nothing if you are so pathetic that you cannot lift an ammo can! (never mind run with it) I trained martial arts with people from the US, Western Europe, and Central Europe, and I can tell you there is a big difference. The highest level of fighting fitness I saw was in Central Europe, then in the US, and the Western Europeans were pathetic.”

Hum… What’s your time running 15 km with back pack at 30 kg and weapon? Mine was 1h34mm, and I was average plus.
Did you ever lift an ammo can, and which one? A 20 mm canon ammunition is not the same than a 17.5 or 7.62…

Then I wanted to see you in a real training, when you sleep 4 hours in 3 days, crawling in icy mud, etc…
I saw many martial Art “experts” collapsing and crying for mummy because “muscles don’t float” (The Guardian, with Costner) and lack of Stamina.

Good rant, carry on…

[Furunculus]

lol, I think that you are underestimating them, and the fact that they would most likely have China as an ally. They do not even have to occupy most of the countries as long as they get they own regimes in power, and use the resources of the country to suppress itself.

lol, i think i'm not.

the average life expectancy of russian men is close to 30 years less than of an average EU citizen, mostly due to alcohol.

most of their army is completely immobile, hasn't trained properly in years, nor too had a proper maintenance schedule.

they're only just starting to complete equipment programs that were supposed to be delivered in the late 80's, now nearly a (human) generation out of date.

their population will decline to less than that of germany within the next (human) generation.

their economy is propped up on petro-chemical exports, and flogging off old soviet era kit.

no, i am not underestimating russia, they are still a great power, but........................ they are surrounded by other great powers, and represent no existential threat to europe any more, and never will again short of pressing every single big-red-button they have left, but why would they do it when Britain and France have a guaranteed second strike?

[rory_20_uk]

China as an Ally? Are you INSANE? What is in it for China, seeing all their markets get wiped out and loosing a sorce of a lot of their high tech imports?

Russia using the resources to suppress the countries... Sounds slightly familiar and didn't work then either.

It reads like the Iraqi war planners who were going to throw the 1990 coalition back into the sea as they were living on Cloud Cuckoo Land.

[Furunculus]

China as an Ally? Are you INSANE? What is in it for China, seeing all their markets get wiped out and loosing a sorce of a lot of their high tech imports?

Russia using the resources to suppress the countries... Sounds slightly familiar and didn't work then either.

It reads like the Iraqi war planners who were going to throw the 1990 coalition back into the sea as they were living on Cloud Cuckoo Land.

agreed, by the time russia had moment to pause from its 'glorious' invasion of western europe it would find china occupying eastern siberia and all those glorious mineral deposits.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Everyone hates America and is collaborating to take us down. Europe is too socialist to fight back against the evil tide. That's why we need our bases everywhere. It's just a fact. If you disagree then go live in Russia and China and tell me they are not working with the terrorists at dismantling the freedom we built and shipped to the rest of the world in WW2.

[Sarmatian]

lol, i think i'm not.

the average life expectancy of russian men is close to 30 years less than of an average EU citizen, mostly due to alcohol.

15 years compared to UK.

[Kagemusha]

I am not talking about height. The French people are saw were plenty tall...they just looked like toothpicks...or Jews in a concentration camp. They had no muscle on them at all. That is what I mean by size, and what I mean by fitness is their ability to work hard under trying conditions. I know lots of buffed up kids who work out and run all the time, who cannot do farm work at all, because they would get winded in the first few seconds. The same fitness that enables you to work well enables you to fight well. A hard working population will be a hard fighting population. Do you know how many stupid, body building dorks I know who I can wipe the floor with? Being fit has more to do with the quality of your muscle and the good muscle memory you have than how many pounds you can lift.




Being a pencil necked dork who can run 400m means nothing if you are so pathetic that you cannot lift an ammo can! (never mind run with it) I trained martial arts with people from the US, Western Europe, and Central Europe, and I can tell you there is a big difference. The highest level of fighting fitness I saw was in Central Europe, then in the US, and the Western Europeans were pathetic.

And would these epitomies of martial prowess be by any sense for example Serbians? I also have to wonder do you have any kind of military training as you so easily can judge entire nations as being unfit for one? Atleast where i happen to live we have this wonderful thing called mandatory military service and most of us pencil necks have achieved to pass it quite all right.

Yes, but you need larger people who can work to produce grain. Right now America can easily produce enough grain to feed itself and its allies if there was ever a sustained war. Pathetic, skinny, lazy people who cannot work may take less food to feed, but will not be able to produce any for themselves.

Maybe it has somehow escaped you, but in matter of fact EU is the worlds third largest grain producer. I would suggest you to drop your stereotypes a bit and research bit more before you start making statements like these in future.

[rory_20_uk]

Due to the evidence of microcephaly on this thread, even I have lost the will to challenge these... uninformed views.

I have no problem with discussing almost any topic, but preferably with someone not showing evidence of far too much consanguinity in the not too distant past.

[Vladimir]

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010...te-penetrator/

Europe's deep penetrator.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yes, but you need larger people who can work to produce grain. Right now America can easily produce enough grain to feed itself and its allies if there was ever a sustained war. Pathetic, skinny, lazy people who cannot work may take less food to feed, but will not be able to produce any for themselves.

wait what did you say larger people to produce grain you do realise that even a small country like Ireland produces waaaaayyy more food than we could possibly ever eat, thats why Kerry Group and other Irish companies like them are massive overseas.

Meanwhile in Europe we will get along just fine with high tech farm machinery to produce our food


Only in Third World countries do they need gangs of strong backs to produce the food they eat and they still don't produce enough to eat. Thats why in the developed world we use science allied with machinery in conjunction with proper business and accountancy methods to produce the food for our tables.



Please stop your embarrassing yourself now there is no way this is your actual opinion your obviously just Trolling but it is hilarious to read it all the same.

[Strike For The South]

Being a pencil necked dork who can run 400m means nothing if you are so pathetic that you cannot lift an ammo can! (never mind run with it) I trained martial arts with people from the US, Western Europe, and Central Europe, and I can tell you there is a big difference. The highest level of fighting fitness I saw was in Central Europe, then in the US, and the Western Europeans were pathetic.

Playing karate has no bearing on phyiscal fitness. I mean I've seen fat people do it in jeans

I am not talking about height. The French people are saw were plenty tall...they just looked like toothpicks...or Jews in a concentration camp. They had no muscle on them at all. That is what I mean by size, and what I mean by fitness is their ability to work hard under trying conditions. I know lots of buffed up kids who work out and run all the time, who cannot do farm work at all, because they would get winded in the first few seconds. The same fitness that enables you to work well enables you to fight well. A hard working population will be a hard fighting population. Do you know how many stupid, body building dorks I know who I can wipe the floor with? Being fit has more to do with the quality of your muscle and the good muscle memory you have than how many pounds you can lift.

LOL, Going into your schools REC every 3rd day to get a chest pump does not a serious lifter make. If that was the case everyone who has ever worn a tap out t-shirt is an MMA fighter.

I also doubt you have ever actually been on a farm considering your idea of farmwork would ring true for an antebellum cotton feild....maybe even then the slaves were usually to tired to fight.

I am begining to think you are trolling. Which is fine because you trolling is better than you being wrong.

[Beskar]

Also, Europes GDP is higher than the US.

[Furunculus]

Also, Europes GDP is higher than the US.

at least for next decade................ and then america will overtake......... until the next time the EU decides to absorb more economies.

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/pub...=view&id=24195

[al Roumi]

What is the mean collar size of US Trolls? Do they tend to be more "warlike" than Trolls of other ethnicities?

[Slyspy]

15 years compared to UK.

Take the Scots out of the equation and the difference looks much better for the remainder of the UK.