Why can't Europe defend itself?

[gaelic cowboy]

Take the Scots out of the equation and the difference looks much better for the remainder of the UK.

Yea Rhy stop eating those deep fried mars bars yer letting the side down

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

What is the mean collar size of US Trolls? Do they tend to be more "warlike" than Trolls of other ethnicities?

Because we do the work of Europe for them.

- Europe has taken an approach of bilateral economic ties/strings which can be leveraged after the colonies were dismantled (so military bases were out of the question to begin with). In addition Europe maintains a military of similar technological capabilities as that of the USA, but far smaller in raw numbers. (Incidentally a lot of the USA budget on military expenses ends up in Europe due to the USA's main suppliers of some of the tech being European.)

And allow Eastern Europe to be boss around because they can suffer rising heating costs in the winter if Russia plays hard ball?
- Primary threats to Europe are gone, so the cold war style armies are too. We find it saves us a lot of money, and collectively time that we can spend on something worth doing.

Like retiring when you 50 years old and crying when you have to go back to work when you bankrupt your nation?




- Apart from that it's laughable that either China or Russia should invade their primary export markets.

Ever think of China invading Taiwan to control that part of the sea?

And why was it when the Dutch and Belgians I believe had the chance to stop the genocide in Rwanda, Kofi Annan and the French told them to back off, and meanwhile the French was supplying the Murderers. Check out the Worse then War book, might learn something.


Where was Europe's strong handing when the Balkan wars broke out? Took many years before anything remotely got done.

When Geogria got invaded in 2008, All the European nations complained....... But no help. Not from Germany, England, France, Italy, Poland, Ukraine..... That's really nice. .

[gaelic cowboy]

When Geogria got invaded in 2008, All the European nations complained....... But no help. Not from Germany, England, France, Italy, Poland, Ukraine..... That's really nice. .

Hmm seem to remember the USA did not start WW3 over Georgia either or maybe I missed the bulletin on Sky News.

It amazes me that Americans cant see that US troops are in Europe to further American interests not European despite what right wing US politiians might say your army chiefs are quite happy to be the lynchpin of European security through NATO.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

And you Europeans are different how again?

[gaelic cowboy]

And you Europeans are different how again?

What????????

Ah I get it you think because the US is the preeminent power in NATO this somehow means Europe cannot defend itself. Don't be silly America has global interests therefore it has a bigger military. It does not make a bit of sense either politically or militarily for Europe to try to match the US we have no threats here to our security.

[Vladimir]

*sigh*

If you can't fight with your friends, who can you fight with?

[Tellos Athenaios]

@Warman: Not terribly different no. Just that much more eager to pursue economic/diplomatic alternatives, where the USA is more willing to do the Scrapheap Challenge. Which means nothing in terms of can Europe defends itself (it can) and by extension means that our usual working methods do not require to spend that much on an army. Also, it might help to understand that Europe i comprised of some truly independent nations with their own foreign policy, military, economy etc. as opposed to the semi-autonomous regions that the S in USA stand for.

Oh by the way when it comes to finance, it's the USA which owes Europe a lot of money rather than the reverse -- mainly because a lot of the European debt is to other European creditors (prime example of that being Italy). I.e. as it stands it is the USA living off European (and Chinese and Japanese) credit. USA have been doing this since your beloved Reagan came to power, btw.

[Brenus]

“French was supplying the Murderers. Check out the Worse then War book, might learn something.” Absolute crap. The French did supply machete?
So learn something before to put something on writing and it is double-check your info and sources.
There is no one shade of proof of this allegation but it still going I can see.

“Where was Europe's strong handing when the Balkan wars broke out? Took many years before anything remotely got done.” They were trying, some of them, to prevent an Ethnic Cleansing and the resurgence of Nationalism.
They failed, and the US supported the plan dividing lands following ethnicities and encouraged ethic cleansing… Well done.

“When Geogria got invaded in 2008, All the European nations complained”
Except of course that Georgia was not invaded but started the aggression in shelling Refugees Camps.

“Took many years before anything remotely got done.” Agree. At least the Russian stop the Georgian President to play his little Tudjman…

I think that was the reason why NATO bombed the Serbs because it was what they were doing against the Albanian from Kosovo…
So what is good for US is not for Russia?

[Vladimir]

What? So nothing on my European hardbut penetrator?

[gaelic cowboy]

What? So nothing on my European hardbut penetrator?

I thought twas an april fool or summit I mean Hardbut come on

[PanzerJaeger]

I cannot believe this thread has had legs...

A more serious question would be: 'Should European nations have more force projection capabilities?', which is highly debatable.

[Louis VI the Fat]

What? So nothing on my European hardbut penetrator?

Excellent. The product of close Franco-British-Italian cooperation. Which to me is the way forward for European defense, especially for the two main spenders France and Britain.

There will be massive defense cuts ahead. (Yes, Furunculus, your Conservatives will cut back on defense despite theit election platform). There are also massive efficiency benefits to be had from closer cooperation. Defense budgets can be scaled back ten, twenty percent with relative ease while still maintaining the same operational prowess.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I cannot believe this thread has had legs...

A more serious question would be: 'Should European nations have more force projection capabilities?', which is highly debatable.

Much of Europe should scale back its defense spending. 1.5 percent should suffice, with possible exceptions for France and the UK, who need to project power globally for reasons of prestige.

Everything above 1 / 1.5 % is strategic waste. There is no short term need for more. For Europe's midterm safety, the money was better spend on maternity leave, or education, or healthcare, or the environment. For Europe's long term safety, well, we gave up on thinking like that ages ago.

[Beskar]

Yes, Furunculus, your Conservatives will cut back on defense despite theit election platform.

That was sad, looking back at it. I remember you and Furunculus arguing pre-election over this, and Furunculus was sure that Conservatives would increase spending, and he attacked Labour, while you had all these figures, etc, saying Labour was expanding the military.

He might as well have elected me.

[PanzerJaeger]

Excellent. The product of close Franco-British-Italian cooperation. Which to me is the way forward for European defense, especially for the two main spenders France and Britain.

You can't forget Germany, as much as you'd like to.

[Furunculus]

There will be massive defense cuts ahead. (Yes, Furunculus, your Conservatives will cut back on defense despite theit election platform). There are also massive efficiency benefits to be had from closer cooperation. Defense budgets can be scaled back ten, twenty percent with relative ease while still maintaining the same operational prowess.

i know, i have been reading about it non-stop for the last years. i am also happy to see britain cooperate with france, this should not come as a surprise to you, as my objection lies to delegated sovereignty (as opposed to pooled sovereignty), and i have often noted that france is the only other nation in europe with both a powerful military and a desire to use it.

before you start throwing figures around on what budget the armed forces can sustain their capabilities upon you ought to realise that bernard grays report that just meeting labours unfunded defence acquisition plan over the next decade is in reality a 10% budget cut, and that stuffing the trident acquisition costs into the defence budget represents a 2% cut, and rusi were quite clear that a cut larger than 17% would prevent even a much more limited ability for strategic power projection rather than mini-US broad-spectrum power projection we are supposed to be able to do now. this limits actual treasury cuts in the budget to 5%!

[Furunculus]

That was sad, looking back at it. I remember you and Furunculus arguing pre-election over this, and Furunculus was sure that Conservatives would increase spending, and he attacked Labour, while you had all these figures, etc, saying Labour was expanding the military.

He might as well have elected me.

i believe i very clearly argued that the cons were as bad as labour when it came to funding, on the grounds that:
> labour is happy to splash the cash, but dislike the armed forces
> conservatives like to think of themselves as strong on defence, but are tight with the cash

the defence reasons as to why i wanted the Cons to win were:
> labour have wrecked the forces by failing to fund their stated strategic ambitions in the first place, and then reducing funds at the same time as keeping the forces operating at a tempo above planning assumptions
> todays budget, as likely from either party, will require specialisation, and limitation, to what power projection we will do in future, for without this then what remains will not be strategic in effect, and i prefer the Con's maritime sympathies
> the only mechanism we have for punishing the politicians that have failed the forces so visibly is to kick the rascals out, to fail to do so is tacit acceptance of their actions in office, and that would be unnacceptable.

[Meneldil]

Racialist BS

It's funny when someone living in a country where 1/3 of the adult population is obese calls European 'unfit' to [whatever]. Since you're playing the stereotypes card, I was baffled by the amount of obese people encountered in North America. I'm sure those will do great soldiers *rolleyes*.

War is so 20th century.

As for the topic itself, europe is well able to defend itself, and to project power. France and UK have enough nukes to make Russia (who would never dare to attack, except in some american nutjobs' sick mind) think three times before making a move. As for China attacking us, it's a joke. And the "arabs", priceless :D

We don't need any more power, but we shall keep your military bases. I'm sure they support local economies. Thank you for it.

[PanzerJaeger]

It's funny when someone living in a country where 1/3 of the adult population is obese calls European 'unfit' to [whatever]. Since you're playing the stereotypes card, I was baffled by the amount of obese people encountered in North America. I'm sure those will do great soldiers *rolleyes*.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

You'll note the majority of Americans don't agree with the premise of this thread or some of the 'judgments' made about Europeans by a select few (2) members.

[Husar]

I'm starting to wonder what kind of threads we'd get if Germany started to pump 5% of it's GDP into the military, build carriers, threaten Israeli forces in Palestine with bombardment if they do not withdraw within two days etc. Oh and build our own nukes of course.
Just like the good old days of the Kaiser, it worked really well for us in the end.

[Furunculus]

I'm starting to wonder what kind of threads we'd get if Germany started to pump 5% of it's GDP into the military, build carriers, threaten Israeli forces in Palestine with bombardment if they do not withdraw within two days etc. Oh and build our own nukes of course.
Just like the good old days of the Kaiser, it worked really well for us in the end.

france would collectively brick itself.

[Sarmatian]

I'm starting to wonder what kind of threads we'd get if Germany started to pump 5% of it's GDP into the military, build carriers, threaten Israeli forces in Palestine with bombardment if they do not withdraw within two days etc. Oh and build our own nukes of course.
Just like the good old days of the Kaiser, it worked really well for us in the end.

Ah, just like the good old days. Everything is upside down nowadays. Jews are waging wars, Germans are trading...

[Tellos Athenaios]

You can't forget Germany, as much as you'd like to.

They can, even though they probably want to involve Germany for the cash & industry anyways. Germany is extremely unwilling to use its army, even more so than the Netherlands.

[Louis VI the Fat]

You can't forget Germany, as much as you'd like to.

Hey! I didn't forget Germany! I merely happily played along withmaintaining a modest, low-key image of German defense initiatives.

Germany holds no direct shares in MBDA, the manufacturer. German industry and research are however involved.

This suits everybody. The missiles are German quality, yet carry the mark 'Made in France / UK'. Evil dictators must buy missiles from Paris (/London), not Berlin. Which has the double positive consequence of: a)boasting France's sense of self esteem and foreign importance, and b) diminishing German involvement in the art of murder and destruction, which for historical reasons Germany is a bit wary of.

Bless European co-operation! As usual, everybody wins.

[rory_20_uk]

I think that concerning munitions, there is invariably at least one looser...

[gaelic cowboy]

Rory put that cigarette out when talking around munitions

[Kagemusha]

Ah, just like the good old days. Everything is upside down nowadays. Jews are waging wars, Germans are trading...

Its even more complicated.For example Finland is using a fourth generation anti tank missile called Euro Spike, jointly developed by Israeli Rafael and German Rheinmetall. It would seem Germany is making weapons with every second nation these days. In matter of fact it would seem that indeed today Germany is the worlds third largest arms trader after US and Russia.

[Louis VI the Fat]

it would seem that indeed today Germany is the worlds third largest arms trader after US and Russia.

Indeed.

Also, since 2000, the arms exports of America and the UK have sharply decreased, while those of Germany and France have exploded and nearly doubled.

In line with the trollness of this thread: gee, one wonders why...

the amount of obese people encountered in North America.

Don't get mad. Get even. Wave those euro bills around that the surrender monkeys have been making by the billions ever since reliable France and Germany took a massive arms exports share from America and Britain this past decade.

[gaelic cowboy]

Indeed.

Also, since 2000, the arms exports of America and the UK have sharply decreased, while those of Germany and France have exploded and nearly doubled.

In line with the trollness of this thread: gee, one wonders why...

I suspect they need them for themselves

[Sasaki Kojiro]

It's funny when someone living in a country where 1/3 of the adult population is obese

A natural result of having the best cuisine in the world.