Multiculturalism is dead

[Rhyfelwyr]

Or at least, so thinks Merkel and the CDU/CSU.

Some interesting quotes:

"A recent survey showed that more than 30% of Germans believed Germany was "overrun by foreigners."

"Mrs Merkel stressed that immigrants living in Germany needed to do more to integrate, including learning to speak German. "Anyone who does not immediately speak German", she said, "is not welcome"."

And so I don't have to go ahead and make the Godwin:

"Our correspondent adds that there also seems to be a new strident tone in the country, perhaps leading to less reticence about no-go-areas of the past."

Perhaps most significantly of all...

"Such recent strong anti-immigrant feelings from mainstream politicians come amid an anger in Germany about high unemployment..."

At least one good thing of all this could be that the ridiculous PC-ness that makes immigrants above criticism amongst any centre-right/left-wing politician may be coming to an end.

IMO one of the reasons for the lack of dialogue on this issue is that the lefties/liberals are far too sensitive and afraid to speak up on real problems, and so the only people that do are the far-right loonies, and then things get polarised and stupid and there is never any sensible discussion on the matter. Hopefully people can now start to get over their knee-jerk reactions.

Thoughts?

[jabarto]

"Mrs Merkel stressed that immigrants living in Germany needed to do more to integrate, including learning to speak German.

I'm one of the three or four people on the planet who never had a problem with this kind of thinking. I wouldn't bar someone from entry into a country if they couldn't speak the native language, but it strikes me as astonishingly rude to not even try to learn it if you plan on living there.

[Ser Clegane]

Thoughts?

Looking at the statements from Merkel and Seehofer you should keep the current polls in mind.

Our current administration (Conservatives + Liberals - hope that combination does not confuse our US patrons ) is not looking very good in the polls, Socialists and Greens (especially the latter) are gaining ground again - so CDU and FDP are desperate for a topic that ight help them to recover.
Immigration is a welcome and classic topic for the CDU/CSU to turn to when the hits the fan. Not surprising at all that they try to utilize the current rochus after Sarrazin published his book to gain a couple of percentage points.

anger in Germany about high unemployment

That statement strikes me as very odd (and somewhat uninformed) considering the current unemployment statistics and the trend.

NB: I would agree that learning the language is the minimum prerequisite when immigrating to another country - if you are not willing to take that step it tells a lot about the willingness to integrate. Nevertheless, the current discussion in Germany is too much about trying to get some easy points in the polls that about actually doing something constructive and tangible - hopefully this will change again.

[Lemur]

I don't understand the whole "let's not learn the local language" thing. If I were relocated to Tunisia, I would consider learning Maghreb Arabic a top priority. If I hadn't learned it in a year or two, I would be very disappointed.

What is the logic (or even illogic) or not learning the most common local tongue? Can anyone explain this to me?

[Idaho]

My thought is to look back through history. It shows that human cultures, once every 10 years have a minor panic about cultural and ethnic change, and once every 40 years have a major panic about it.

Go and take look. Any culture, any period, and it will be there. It's all rather tedious and unnecessary.

[Idaho]

What is the logic (or even illogic) or not learning the most common local tongue? Can anyone explain this to me?

It can be any number of factors. From a lack of money or time to pay for lessons or a lack of decent available lessons, right the way through to being lazy and never needing to because you can pay for others to do the translation stuff for you.

If people want to try and live in a foreign country without learning the language, then who really cares - that's their daft decision.

[Lemur]

If people want to try and live in a foreign country without learning the language, then who really cares - that's their daft decision.

Well, it's not just daft; it's rude, as another poster stated. If I'm living and working in Germany, the least I can do is get passable in Deutsch. I don't need to be writing sonnets or sestinas, but I should be able to navigate the basics of life in the local lingo. That's so basic I don't even know how to argue the opposite side.

[gaelic cowboy]

I have me doubts that there are really that many people as a percentage of any immigrant population who cannot speak whatever local language is required.

What is far more likely is that the ones who cannot speak the lingo for a variety of reasons are the one who we remember the most.


However I would agree that if they spend a long time there and don't learn the lingo then it is like given the locals the two fingers

[Husar]

It can be any number of factors. From a lack of money or time to pay for lessons or a lack of decent available lessons, right the way through to being lazy and never needing to because you can pay for others to do the translation stuff for you.

I think the courses should be free and probably are already, they're also not too lazy to go to the government to try and ask for money, which then takes ten times as long because the civil servants will have to try and extract all the necessary info out of them without a common language. And the same happens in shops as well, it's kinda annoying when five customers have to wait just because it takes me five minutes to solve a minor misunderstanding with someone who doesn't get my simplest explanations.
It doesn't happen often though, but I've had some truck driver lately who had to do some toll collect stuff or whatever, well, I think he did, he kept saying "vignette", I shook my head, told him we don't sell vignettes but he kept wanting one, spoke no german, no english, had no idea what to do with the toll collect machine (they offer several languages including polish, english, german etc.). In the end he seemed to have given up after I left him standing there serving other customers while I was wondering what kind of company sends a truck driver to Germany who cannot communicate with Germans at all???
Maybe he wasn't an immigrant but the problem is the same, no communication, no cooperation.

[Fragony]

Kinda odd as she tried to destroy Sarazin in a policor-craze a few weeks back. What caused this U-turn? His book being a huge hit of course. Pure politics she knows that the populist-right have enourmous electoral potential just like here so she takes a more popular stand. Very hypocrite.

[Meneldil]

It can be any number of factors. From a lack of money or time to pay for lessons or a lack of decent available lessons, right the way through to being lazy and never needing to because you can pay for others to do the translation stuff for you.

If people want to try and live in a foreign country without learning the language, then who really cares - that's their daft decision.

Seems that the locals actually care.

On topic, multiculturalism is indeed dead except in the head of a few hardcore leftist carebears. The bad news is that the other side of the coin (ie. "Integrate 100% or leave") doesn't work either in a democracy.

[rory_20_uk]

100% is arguably meaningless as of course there is no one way in any country.

But getting rid of leaflets in several languages / free translation services would be a good place to start.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I don't understand the whole "let's not learn the local language" thing.

It's slightly more complex than that. On the whole pretty much anyone will pick up the basics out of sheer necessity: chances are your life is too complex to define in point & grunt semantics, so you need the local lingo to help you out. But there are people who consider it not necessary or not sufficiently necessary to bother with actually learning the language. I guess because they tend to migrate to a place where they will be among other people of similar backgrounds who understand their native tongue well enough.

Anyway, Lemur, learning a language beyond the basics takes rather more than two years. Ten is nearer to the mark.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's slightly more complex than that. On the whole pretty much anyone will pick up the basics out of sheer necessity: chances are your life is too complex to define in point & grunt semantics, so you need the local lingo to help you out. But there are people who consider it not necessary or not sufficiently necessary to bother with actually learning the language. I guess because they tend to migrate to a place where they will be among other people of similar backgrounds who understand their native tongue well enough.

Anyway, Lemur, learning a language beyond the basics takes rather more than two years. Ten is nearer to the mark.

I don't think this is true, if you have a basic grounding in a language (very basic) and are then immersed in the culture and forced to speak it every day you will reach fluency somewhere between 6 months and a year. If this was not so we wouldn't be able to send in English students to France or Germany and dump them into the Universities there, which we do.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I don't think this is true, if you have a basic grounding in a language (very basic) and are then immersed in the culture and forced to speak it every day you will reach fluency somewhere between 6 months and a year. If this was not so we wouldn't be able to send in English students to France or Germany and dump them into the Universities there, which we do.

For the immigrants who do not learn the language: they are not immersed in the culture, nor forced to speak the language every day. Otherwise they would learn it.
For the rest there is more to a language than being able to do shopping, day to day communication etc. You become fluent in a subset of it, but not necessarily competent with the whole framework of syntax, grammar, idiom etc.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Immigration is a welcome and classic topic for the CDU/CSU to turn to when the hits the fan. Not surprising at all that they try to utilize the current rochus after Sarrazin published his book to gain a couple of percentage points.

Nevertheless, the current discussion in Germany is too much about trying to get some easy points in the polls that about actually doing something constructive and tangible - hopefully this will change again.

The shift to hardright ideas transcends current German political events. The shift is structural and pan-European, therefore anything temporary or specifically German falls short as an explanation.

The Sarrazin debate served as a catalyst. The dam was going to break sooner or later. Like elsewhere in Europe, the hardright has managed to become mainstream. Things are now said openly for which one would've been ostrasiced fifteen years ago. For reasons of historical legacy, 'decent' German society kept the lid on for longer than all of its neighbours. Not anymore. Germany has followed Austria, Denmark, the Netherlands.



As for Merkel, maybe like the overwhelming majority of Ossies she's just not so into anything brown. There is still an iron curtain in Europe, running midway through Germany. To the west, societies are open, mixed, there are foreigners on the streets, gays too. To the east, societies are closed, violent, and bare chested skinheads patrol the streets. Yikes....

A third of Germans say they want foreigners repatriated, and 10 percent of Germans would prefer to have a “führer”

The Muslim community was particularly singled out by respondents. Over 55 percent of respondents said Arabs were not pleasant people, compared with 44 percent in the foundation’s 2003 report. As to whether Muslims should face restrictions in practicing their religion, 58 percent agreed. It was 75 percent in the Eastern Germany.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/wo...many.html?_r=2

[gaelic cowboy]

10 percent of Germans would prefer to have a “führer”

Thats gotta be what 7 maybe 8 million people you sure about that stat

[Megas Methuselah]

Thats gotta be what 7 maybe 8 million people you sure about that stat

We're talking about Germans here. Not Cree. Not Saulteaux. Not Blackfoot. Hell, not even Metis.

GERMANS. Roll with it, bro.

[Husar]

Yeah, I wish we had a Führer like Kemal Atatürk or so.

[Louis VI the Fat]

We're talking about Germans here. Not Cree. Not Saulteaux. Not Blackfoot. Hell, not even Metis.

GERMANS. Roll with it, bro.

'Unlike all X, I never generalise'


The Germans are the most anti-fascist people in Europe. The people are more attached to democracy, and the state has done more to ensure democracy in Europe, than any other.

On the internets, all political-sociological-historical knowledge is reduced to war history, this war history is limited to the last war, in a simplified form, and from this pityful substrate everything one needs to know about the world is then extrapolated.
However, German history is slightly more complex than 'they are racist orcs'.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Question: What does it matter if people don't agree on a metric to measure by?

[Papewaio]

There is a whole range of metrics as we are looking at the span of human life. The most easiest to measure is life span.

Like any scientific measurement you have a +/- range attached and in some countries that data is going to be more fuzzy... And probably a correlation to how dangerous that country is as not even birth records are viable.

Greenpeace can whine until they choke on their on anti scientific hubris. 3% of the worlds energy budget goes into fixing nitrogen into the worlds soils. The science of agriculture and chemistry have allowed a true green revolution that has tripled our ability to feed people. Greenpeace is blocking as much of this as possible in the GMO sphere.

Anyhow lots of data for human life can be used. Main thing is to look at the trends and vectors. Human lifespan has doubled for most people in the last hundred years.

[Husar]

Question: What does it matter if people don't agree on a metric to measure by?

That everybody will see a different culture as superior?

Back to the roots people will think the culture of indians living with nature iss superior to all others.

Most people would probably think the USA ahave the best culture as the USA are rich and powerful.

Other people would believe that that's a horrible culture full of pressure and stress and that a more relaxed culture is far superior.

There is a whole range of metrics as we are looking at the span of human life. The most easiest to measure is life span.

Like any scientific measurement you have a +/- range attached and in some countries that data is going to be more fuzzy... And probably a correlation to how dangerous that country is as not even birth records are viable.

what if two countries have a similar lifespan but a completely different culture? Does that make these countries equal? And what about countries where people are sick all the time but held alive by chemistry and machines, does that sound like a great culture to everyone?

Anyhow lots of data for human life can be used. Main thing is to look at the trends and vectors. Human lifespan has doubled for most people in the last hundred years.

Does that mean culture has improved or science has made progress? Is scientific progress the measure for the value of a culture?

And yes Vladimir, we all lose, British culture is the best because it conquered the most other cultures, thus showing it's superiority.

[Papewaio]

As a single value lifespan is potentially the most accurate and telling rule of thumb. Then you can add other measurements to get a much better grasp.

I'm sure a ranking of countries lifespan and freedoms would have a high correlation.

Also I think comparison of countries is fine. If all countries are equal then refugees have no legitimate claim.