Multiculturalism is dead

[The Stranger]

I don't see why you believe that :)

well i believe that objectivity cannot be achieved. but when you say that morals are objective and murder, rape, lying, wearing fur is always wrong no matter how some cultures or some eras have thought about it, then you will need to have absolute certainty because you are talking about absolute and universal values. and if you claim those values are objective no matter what than you gotta prove your claim beyond all reasonable doubt because if you dont it can always be asked How do you know that what you say is the truth and can you prove it to be so.

the problem is that none of the traditional answers hold up if you are really critical.

the culture relavist theory fails but the surface difference theory fails as well because the fact the it happens to be so that all the current cultures and as far as we know also the past cultures only differ on the surface this doesnt mean that a (human/reasonable) culture in which the morals are radically different could not exist

then you have the veneer theory which is at war with the biology/social animal theory etc etc

[Sasaki Kojiro]

well i believe that objectivity cannot be achieved. but when you say that morals are objective and murder, rape, lying, wearing fur is always wrong no matter how some cultures or some eras have thought about it, then you will need to have absolute certainty because you are talking about absolute and universal values. and if you claim those values are objective no matter what than you gotta prove your claim beyond all reasonable doubt because if you dont it can always be asked How do you know that what you say is the truth and can you prove it to be so.

It's objective whether I'm sitting on a chair or not but I don't need absolute certainty in order to be justified in claiming that I am sitting on a chair. And if I am justified in believing it and it's true then I know that I am sitting on a chair. So clearly I can know things without having absolute, Cartesian certainty. So I can also know that murder is wrong. The possibility of moral knowledge is what's important.

[The Stranger]

It's objective whether I'm sitting on a chair or not but I don't need absolute certainty in order to be justified in claiming that I am sitting on a chair. And if I am justified in believing it and it's true then I know that I am sitting on a chair. So clearly I can know things without having absolute, Cartesian certainty. So I can also know that murder is wrong. The possibility of moral knowledge is what's important.

you are talking about justification while i am talking about truth. ofcourse you are justified to belief something without having absolute certainty but you cannot know the absolute truth if you do not have absolute certainty. so you cannot make the absolute claim that morals are objective as long as you cannot refute humes skeptiscism.

however in your day to day life you do not have to take it into account with everything you do, that would be impossible.

whether you are justified in believing something is something else than whether what you believe is true.


because with the chair i can counter with the following

you see yourself sitting in a chair, (lets agree that this is enough justification to claim that you are sitting in a chair) so you are justified in believing that you sit in a chair, yet actually you are a brain in a vat and a scientist had stimulated you the belief that you are sitting in a chair and has stimulated you the vision that you see yourself sitting in a chair. so even though you are justified in believing that you sit in a chair you dont know that you sit in a chair because you are not sitting in a chair but you are a brain in a vat. and since you can never know for 100% that you are not a brain in a vat (even though its highly unlikely that you are) you can never absolutely know that you sit in a chair.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

you are talking about justification while i am talking about truth. ofcourse you are justified to belief something without having absolute certainty but you cannot know the absolute truth if you do not have absolute certainty. so you cannot make the absolute claim that morals are objective as long as you cannot refute humes skeptiscism.

however in your day to day life you do not have to take it into account with everything you do, that would be impossible.

whether you are justified in believing something is something else than whether what you believe is true.

That's not true TS...absolute certainty is not required for absolute truth. Isn't it absolutely true that the sun is bigger than the earth? I can't I know that the sun is bigger than the earth? But I can't be absolutely certain.

mind you, "absolute truth" is not a phrase I use often.

[The Stranger]

That's not true TS...absolute certainty is not required for absolute truth. Isn't it absolutely true that the sun is bigger than the earth? I can't I know that the sun is bigger than the earth? But I can't be absolutely certain.

mind you, "absolute truth" is not a phrase I use often.

how is it absolutely true that the sun is bigger than the earth? it would only be absolutely true if it was the definition of the sun that it was bigger than the earth. and if you know that it is absolutely true than i dont see how you cant be absolutely certain. and if you say that you cant be absolutely certain i dont see how you can know it to be absolutely true.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

how is it absolutely true that the sun is bigger than the earth? it would only be absolutely true if it was the definition of the sun that it was bigger than the earth. and if you know that it is absolutely true than i dont see how you cant be absolutely certain. and if you say that you cant be absolutely certain i dont see how you can know it to be absolutely true.

We started out this thread using absolute truth in the manner of universal truth. Can you define it? Because it seems like a nebulous concept the way you are using it and I don't see what the relevance to morality is...

That the sun is big is true relative to the earth, that the sun is bigger than the earth is true absolutely (without being relative to anything). That's how the word makes sense to me.

[The Stranger]

We started out this thread using absolute truth in the manner of universal truth. Can you define it? Because it seems like a nebulous concept the way you are using it and I don't see what the relevance to morality is...

That the sun is big is true relative to the earth, that the sun is bigger than the earth is true absolutely (without being relative to anything). That's how the word makes sense to me.

i dont see how you can prove that it is impossible that all the scientists have been wrong and that in fact the sun is not much bigger than it appears to us. its unlikely, i dont believe it myself, but it is a possibility. and even though it might be absolutely true that the sun is bigger than the earth, you cannot be absolutely certain thus i believe you cannot absolutely know it.

and indeed weve kinda strayed to epistomology and its only indirectly relevant to morals, or better said to the issue if we could ever make an objective claim, which includes the claim of an objective morality.

i think it could best be explained that an absolute truth is a truth which is both universal and eternal. universal truth would mean true for everyone at a given point and eternal truth would be a truth that is always true. and if you would combine such a truth you would get an absolute truth which is always true for everyone.