[Phalanxes] What am I doing wrong?

[QuintusSertorius]

Here's the situation. In straight phalanx on phalanx duels, my troops always seem to get minced. Their flanks are covered, they're not being attacked from the rear or anything like that. But it seems against almost any AI phalanx, they get massacred.

Two recent examples, in both cases I have Kleruchoi phalangites with 1 chevron and upgraded weapons and armour (Att: 19, Def: 23). Against the Qarthadastim, they met Elite African Pikemen in the centre of the field. Granted these guys are much better armoured and better fighters. But I would have thought on guard mode and phalanx mode, my phalangites would be able to endure for a while. By the end of the battle, there were less than a fifth of them left. Although they'd also taken a frontal charge from the enemy general (but isn't that one of the things a phalanx should be good against?).

Second one was in a city against two depleted Ptolemaic Pezhetairoi (who had two points of defense higher, that was the only difference). They had a slight advantage in numbers (I think in total about 60 men more). But once again my phalangites seemed to get annihilated, but theirs lasted for ages, even after the rest of the besiegers got round the other side of them and surrounded them.

I normally leave them with the frontage and depth they are defaulted to, put them on guard and phalanx mode, and just leave them alone. Should I be doing something different?

[Cute Wolf]

did you play on hard or very hard battle difficulty?

[QuintusSertorius]

did you play on hard or very hard battle difficulty?

Nope, medium battle difficulty, so there's no bonuses to the AI stats. Virtually every battle where the enemy has had a phalanx line to throw against mine, I've taken 50% phalangite casualties.

I only have two phalanx units, flanked by classical hoplites, could that be part of the problem? Do phalanxes only work well with lots of them?

[Paltmull]

I'm no phalanx specialist, but try not using guard mode when fighting other phalanx units.

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm no phalanx specialist, but try not using guard mode when fighting other phalanx units.

Why is that? Does guard mode do something funny to units in phalanx formation? Is it either/or guard mode or phalanx mode?

I thought guard mode let a unit fight for ages with minimal exhaustion or casualties (though low kills)?

[Paltmull]

Why is that? Does guard mode do something funny to units in phalanx formation? Is it either/or guard mode or phalanx mode?

I thought guard mode let a unit fight for ages with minimal exhaustion or casualties (though low kills)?

This is normally the case, but IIRC it won't work in phalanx vs phalanx combat. The AI will use its phalanx agressively - and, for some reason, if you don't push back you will take lots of casualties without causing any to the enemy.

Having guard mode turned off might cause some weird issues though (unless you're using alex.exe), with your phalangites "moonwalking" out of position - creating gaps in your line.

[GenosseGeneral]

Make sure that your phalanxes never have to fight uphill. This will make them die like flies.

[SaigonSaddler]

Fought against the Ptollies elite phalanx units on VH. They must be surrounded and attacked from the rear, preferably after being pelted with missiles (again from the rear). The objective of the phlanx is to pin the enemy, not to break it. Nothing likes being charged from the rear, take a look at the morale of the unit to assess if and when they'll break.

Best thing to do is unleash a load of javelins from behind, or better still arrows and slingshot. You can do this after they become engaged.

[Rahl]

Some nice EB-players made battle-studies about phalanxes, they will probably helpt you a lot. Read this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...-Into-the-Past
I can't give any tipps myself. I hate macedonian phalanxes, fighting with or against them...

[vartan]

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8p...ODM3ZjY5&hl=en

On behalf of Adam and myself, don't mention it!

[QuintusSertorius]

This is normally the case, but IIRC it won't work in phalanx vs phalanx combat. The AI will use its phalanx agressively - and, for some reason, if you don't push back you will take lots of casualties without causing any to the enemy.

Having guard mode turned off might cause some weird issues though (unless you're using alex.exe), with your phalangites "moonwalking" out of position - creating gaps in your line.

This might well be it, then. I'll see if I get different results without guard mode on.

Fought against the Ptollies elite phalanx units on VH. They must be surrounded and attacked from the rear, preferably after being pelted with missiles (again from the rear). The objective of the phlanx is to pin the enemy, not to break it. Nothing likes being charged from the rear, take a look at the morale of the unit to assess if and when they'll break.

Best thing to do is unleash a load of javelins from behind, or better still arrows and slingshot. You can do this after they become engaged.

It's not an issue with breaking them, I just wonder why it seems to be that the AI phalanx hardly takes any casualties, yet mine take loads.

Not just elite phalanxes either, as before the second instance was against ordinary pezhetairoi. Yet mine died like flies and theirs lasted ages.

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8p...ODM3ZjY5&hl=en

On behalf of Adam and myself, don't mention it!

How bizarre! So you turn guard mode on if you're attacking, and off if you're defending. Basically against the AI there's no point in using guard mode?

[Vaginacles]

this has never happened to me and all i play are phalanx heavy factions. Probably because i break them easily with my quick charge.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Fought against the Ptollies elite phalanx units on VH. [..]

Are you implying that they are mortal?

On a more serious note, always take the high ground and let them come into your phalanx. That way they take the first row of pikes. You made sure that the phalanx fight at the same angle? I don't meddle with guard mode so I think they are always on guard mode in my battles, perform fine.

~Fluvius

[FriendlyFire]

As others have noted, slopes are a huge killer, and heavy cavalry or FMs will disrupt your phalanx to the point where they get slaughtered while trying to reform. I've also noticed that even small stat differences (as you saw in the 2-point advantage) seem to get magnified in phalanx duels, possibly because they just last so long. Presumably this applies to general's stars as well: if you're fighting at a disadvantage there, then your phalanxes will be minced.

Overall, I never trust my phalanx to win a duel, and my Successor battle always turn into a race to get around the rear of the enemy phalanx. Even then the enemy phalanxes typically take a long time to die against flanking infantry, so I try to do an alt-right-click heavy cavalry charge into the rear of an exhausted unit for a quick kill. Generally I leave the cavalry in the charge, take my phalanx off phalanx mode and tell it to alt-right-click attack as well: the enemy phalanx ends up crushed in a scrum, where they're busy trying to reform but are being cut to shreds by heavy horsemen from behind and suddenly-agile opponents from the front. Since phalanxes are almost always disciplined, inflicting sudden massive casualties in this way is the only way to break them. If I could be bothered to wait, the other tactic would be to flank with infantry with lots of javelins, and throw them ALL into the back of the phalanx before charging into hand-to-hand combat.

For most battles I size each phalanx to be 6-deep, so it can take some casualties and still present the full 5-deep wall of spearpoints. If you're doing lots of maneuvering (e.g. in cities), then they'll default to moving in a roughly-square formation. If you let them move like this and leave guard mode off, then when they hit something you'll see them switch to a slightly wider and shallower formation.

Canceling "fighting" status by hitting backspace will reduce the rate at which you kill the enemy now, in return for saving energy. Then when the enemy is exhausted your troops are still fresh, and can hopefully take some revenge.

Another tactic which I've never tried but MIGHT work would be to keep refusing your entire battle line: whenever the enemy phalanx lowers its sarissas and starts marching, back yours up (out of phalanx mode). The goal is to exhaust the enemy phalanx before combat starts, which will greatly reduce the rate at which they kill your guys, and make them easier to rout when charged from the rear. Obviously only works if there are slopes and/or stat-heat differences involved

The "refusing" tactic can also be a way to break a battle line that's too broad to flank: as the two phalanx lines advance, let one of your center units stop. Typically the opposing unit will keep coming through your lines to make contact. Now you can attack it in safety from the flanks, because it's behind your lines. And once you've routed it, you have a hole in the middle of the enemy line to feed troops through.

[vartan]

How bizarre! So you turn guard mode on if you're attacking, and off if you're defending. Basically against the AI there's no point in using guard mode?

No...did you even read the document? at least its conclusion?

It doesn't matter if you are fighting the AI or a human. In a phalanx vs phalanx fight, on/attack or off/defend. Defending, if you read the document, means you do not order an attack on the enemy with your phalanx unit. You let the enemy engage your phalanx.

Canceling "fighting" status by hitting backspace will reduce the rate at which you kill the enemy now, in return for saving energy. Then when the enemy is exhausted your troops are still fresh, and can hopefully take some revenge.

Another disgusting truth when it comes to Rome: Total War. Find more information here:

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=...NmQ4Nzdj&hl=en

As you can see, for a non-phalanx defender, defending (i.e. idling) will result in a tricky situation. Either you can idly defend, losing more men yet remaining fresh, or you can actively defend (i.e. guard mode disabled), and be more tired yet survive with more men (because you routed the enemy faster). The question is: Do you want less men that are more fresh to be used later in the end game? or do you want more men, albeit tired men, to be used earlier, during the mid game? To be honest, I would go with the latter because fatigue doesn't play nearly as much a role in the game as quantity does.

[vollorix]

From my experience, if you go in deeper formation than the enemy phalanx you should get a bit encircled, if AI phalanx unit is attacking ( which is mostly the case, when AI "feels" superior ). I would then normally take 2 additional phalanx units ( preferably depleted, but more experienced, which is most the case, since they are no match for a full enemy phalanx unit anyway ) and let them attack from both sides in a c.a 45° angle with guard mod off, hitting backslash to keep them in formation, cutting through enemy and causing huge amount of causalities within a short period of time ( actually the same effect you can see on your own phalanx being slaughtered by AI phalanx ), and finely routing the enemy unit without any significant losses, because your attacking units kill too fast ( and gaining even more experience for the flanking phalanx units, because they won´t suffer any causalities! ). The frontal assault of the main unit does still work against elite phalanx, but you have to be ready to kind of say goodbye to your poor buggers in the center position - well, never mind, they can be utilized later as flanking killers :)
One can use this tactic also with any heavy infantry unit with strong shields and heavy armor like Classical Hoplites or Triari ( especially in shield wall formation on BI.exe ), while your high lethality/ap infantry would cut enemy unit to pieces.

[QuintusSertorius]

As others have noted, slopes are a huge killer, and heavy cavalry or FMs will disrupt your phalanx to the point where they get slaughtered while trying to reform. I've also noticed that even small stat differences (as you saw in the 2-point advantage) seem to get magnified in phalanx duels, possibly because they just last so long. Presumably this applies to general's stars as well: if you're fighting at a disadvantage there, then your phalanxes will be minced.

This might be an element of it, then. I almost never have a generals' star advantage, unless I'm fighting a stack led by a captain.

Playing a migrated faction with no homelands regions, I don't have anything better than kleruchoi phalangites or mercenary pezhetairoi. Guess I'll just have to plan for them getting chewed up.

Overall, I never trust my phalanx to win a duel, and my Successor battle always turn into a race to get around the rear of the enemy phalanx.

Just to be absolutely clear, I'm not expecting them to win. I'm expecting them to hold and not get butchered while I outflank the enemy phalanx.

No...did you even read the document? at least its conclusion?

It doesn't matter if you are fighting the AI or a human. In a phalanx vs phalanx fight, on/attack or off/defend. Defending, if you read the document, means you do not order an attack on the enemy with your phalanx unit. You let the enemy engage your phalanx.

Since I pretty much always fight on the defensive (almost always have smaller armies than the AI), that means I shouldn't be using guard mode for my phalanxes. I never use them to attack. I didn't in either of the examples above, I was on the defensive, but with guard mode on.

[FriendlyFire]

As you can see, for a non-phalanx defender, defending (i.e. idling) will result in a tricky situation. Either you can idly defend, losing more men yet remaining fresh, or you can actively defend (i.e. guard mode disabled), and be more tired yet survive with more men (because you routed the enemy faster). The question is: Do you want less men that are more fresh to be used later in the end game? or do you want more men, albeit tired men, to be used earlier, during the mid game? To be honest, I would go with the latter because fatigue doesn't play nearly as much a role in the game as quantity does.

I agree that it's a tricky choice with no obvious clear-cut winner. Letting them fight feels a little less "gamey" to me (since that's what the AI would do), but sometimes when facing overwhelming odds I want to keep a phalanx fresh so that it can become the next flanking and/or router-chasing unit.

I'm also not so sure about fatigue, because tired units seem to kill at a lower rate. I'm getting quite good results by cycling units out of combat, especially where it's constrained terrain (e.g. city streets). Of course, you suffer casualties as you disengage, but if you carry on cycling then your units will always be warmed up or winded at best, while they're fighting (and then pulling back from) very tired and exhausted enemy units. And it's much easier to disengage from a tired enemy.

[A_Dane]

For some reason, I've always found, that if your line is longer than the enemies line, you'll get absolutely decimated. It's not something I've tested, but I'm always using my guys in a somewhat dense formation when fighting other phalanxes. That's been working for me...

[QuintusSertorius]

For some reason, I've always found, that if your line is longer than the enemies line, you'll get absolutely decimated. It's not something I've tested, but I'm always using my guys in a somewhat dense formation when fighting other phalanxes. That's been working for me...

I'm wondering if this is the case too; I leave them a lot wider than they are deep (the default they appear on the battle deployment) for maximum frontage. What I worry about is leaving gaps between them where the enemy can filter in and threaten their morale ("Concerned about exposed flank").

[antisocialmunky]

Make phalanx boxes instead of lines and order them to attack?

[A_Dane]

I'm wondering if this is the case too; I leave them a lot wider than they are deep (the default they appear on the battle deployment) for maximum frontage. What I worry about is leaving gaps between them where the enemy can filter in and threaten their morale ("Concerned about exposed flank").

Can only advice you try it for yourself. In some situations i find that a wide line is better than a box, but when fighting other phalanxes, being slightly more dense seems to give me the advantage.

[Cute Wolf]

Make phalanx boxes instead of lines and order them to attack?

HOLY LOL! I remember doing that when I first playing RTW!

Complete mess, complete BLOODY MESS even against depleted Egyptian Axemen
(but I understand if some newbie try to plainly attack after made a sucessful noob-box defense)

[vartan]

I agree that it's a tricky choice with no obvious clear-cut winner. Letting them fight feels a little less "gamey" to me (since that's what the AI would do), but sometimes when facing overwhelming odds I want to keep a phalanx fresh so that it can become the next flanking and/or router-chasing unit.

Realize that what I mention about the pros and cons of guard mode for a defender do not apply to phalanx units.

When you're playing against an opponent, be it human or AI (hope you're playing against a player or I will go after you!), you usually want to match the enemy's phalanx line, no matter what. And for good reason. Your phalanxes are the best possible match for his. And of course, if you're attacking, guard on, if you're defending, guard off. Smart players, when attacking, attack in such a way as to give one of their flanks a bonus, while refusing the opposing flank. Sons of guns gain the initiative and win more often than not. They also tend to be the victors of tournaments and whatnot.