Star Wars: Fall of the Order [Concluded]

[Renata]

yes.. I don't know how I managed to miss that he was dead...

As for why I didn't like that bandwagon: It was based on two things iirc; scummy thread behavior, and scans that says he has light side in him.

I never found his in thread behavior scummy at that time. In fact quite the contrary. I think he behaved like he does , when he is town. And with the scan.. I know it is different from our first result, but.. when reading it 'light side in him' doesn't exactly suggest the oppersite imo

More like "very little light side in him", wasn't it? Without knowing how a Sith apprentice or random dark jedi would scan, you can't be certain that isn't exactly how they'd turn up. In fact this from pever:

There is absolutes at the end of the spectrum, if you hit it, you can't be converted. Otherwise you can. Very few will ever hit it.

suggests strongly that that's the case. Cecil, the "chosen one", was probably at the light side extreme. He'd have turned up entirely light. The Dark One and the Sith leader at the other end, no light at all. Everyone else, including some of the bad guys/neutrals, somewhere in between.

I do think there is a point that the Dark One himself or the Sith leader would be less likely to show up as something iffy than as something more clearly townie, which probabably does make Diamondeye unlikely to be either of those things.

[Joooray]

adding this with pevergreens pm, that he showed publicly somewhere in the thread, which said that the person in contact with pevergreen had not moved closer to the dark side after a killing (iirc it was after killing a sith, but I am not certain). The point is that killers apparently get a notice that they moved closer to the dark side when killing innocent..

Even though your point about Andres has been cleared, let me restate what I said yesterday. One does not move more to the Dark Side by killing a Sith, only by killing Jedi. If I interpret the holocron correctly, this does also include Dark Jedi.
And no, one is not informed about that. At least I wasn't

Never mind my previous question if you can actually keep tabs on what Joooray is doing at night as regards light/dark influencing stuff. If you can't, the issue remains.

I only know about Juyo being associated with the Dark Side. It's generally the more aggressive Saber Forms that lead down that path.
With other abilities, I'm not sure, it might be that Force Lighting put me on the Dark Side faster than killing with a saber would. It felt awfully fast for me, which is why it took me by surprise.

Well, I'm out in the open now, I'm Joooray, and I'm a Dark Jedi.
I have ensured the Force Ghosts my complete cooperation, they know everything I found out via the holocron and have a good idea about my abilities. At this point my main interest is survival and getting back to the light side, which is possible as the holocron clearly says. It is clear that this will only be possible for me when I work in the towns interest, and even then I don't know how long I will last, as I should become a primary target by Sith and the Dark One. But let them use their abilities on me, maybe this way others will remain safe during the night (the next one at least). As I said, I will inform the Ghosts about my every move, this way there should be no doubt about what I'm doing at night. And let me assure you, I can be very useful during the night. Something which will take a new grandmaster some time to achieve.

All I ask for, is not to be lynched at this point (as soon as the Force Ghost feel the can't trust anymore, you can always lynch me, I don't have Force Breath) and maybe be protected during the night. At the same time, I will be working together with the Force Ghosts to get me back to Light Side.

[pevergreen]

I do think there is a point that the Dark One himself or the Sith leader would be less likely to show up as something iffy than as something more clearly townie, which probabably does make Diamondeye unlikely to be either of those things.

the dark one is immune to all but 1 type of scan, that is only available to the grandmaster. Theres a bunch of GM powers.

As to keeping an eye of Joooray...don't ask the impossible. I know the roughly what he can do, and how much of it. If he attacks someone, we will know.

The darkside powers are quite obvious that they are darkside (like the force coversion - converts to sith, thats darkside. Theres a few defence ones that are darkside, but jedi dont have a way to learn them.
Jedi powers
Universal powers
Sith powers

You have to be jedi to get jedi ones, sith to get sith ones (with a few exceptions) and anyone can get universal.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Even though your point about Andres has been cleared, let me restate what I said yesterday. One does not....

[Joooray]

I do think there is a point that the Dark One himself or the Sith leader would be less likely to show up as something iffy than as something more clearly townie, which probabably does make Diamondeye unlikely to be either of those things.

Because it seems to have gone unnoticed. The holocron is very specific in stating that the Dark One and the Sith Lord cannot be found via normal investigation. (There are ways, but I won't go into detail publicly)
If they turn up innocent (whatever that is) or one gets some random result, I don't know. But one thing is clear, to catch them, scan result will neither be useful to prove someone's guilt, nor to disprove them.


BTW: How can I get rid of the multi-quotes? They are annoying the living *peep* out of me!!

[Renata]

Just one quick thing I noticed and we have to keep in mind. Sasaki and any other suspect which we accuse with the help of his behaviour before the night before last night, has to be either the Sith Lord or the Dark One since the Apprentice is accounted for after all (if we are looking for the main threats).

The issue of Dark Jedi aside, this appears to be correct.

With this in mind, there are two important points to consider in regard of your case against Sasaki. For one I find it hard to believe that someone would give away his role as Sith Lord or the Dark One. Still it is a possibility , but even then, a rise in attacks during the night cannot be attributed to the Sith Lord suddenly starting to kill, as there are clearly Sith kills during the first nights. Not sure if kills by the Dark One will also appear to be done by Sith (red saber and all) or if the Sith Lord was able to kill twice after Beskar's early demise. (There are two possible Sith attacks the night after the night Beskar died).Hence I'm unsure if he could be the Dark One.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here -- surely by two nights after Beskar's death you'd expect there to be a new apprentice, or at least you'd expect that there could be one, issues of timing and potential restrictions on recruitment aside.

No, it is a power that Jedi can also learn. I told you gained that ability during the day before I attacked dcmort. If you believe I was already on the Dark Side at that point, tell me which kills before that you attribute to my doing?

Belisarius II died a Dark Jedi. What did he do prior to his death to influence that, or did he start the game that way?

[Askthepizzaguy]

BTW: How can I get rid of the multi-quotes? They are annoying the living *peep* out of me!!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Go advanced (reply) in another thread and it gives you this option.

I agree it's silly. Dunno why there's no menu option to get rid of them after you use multi-quotes once.

[TinCow]

While I am not entirely reassured by the Joooray situation, there seems to be sufficient transparency in this process to allow some room for error. Of the remaining multi-vote recipients, I don't find the Sasaki case convincing at all. The votes on him are essentially because he made the case against Cecil which resulted in a lynch. I just don't see that as scummy, sorry Cecil. That leaves Diana, Greyblades, and Diamondeyes. I have not gone back to re-read, but my basic understanding is that the cases on all of these people are posting style and such. I'll have take peoples' word on that, as I haven't really been paying attention to any of them. I have no strong feelings towards any of them. For now I will

Unvote; Vote: Diamondeyes

To keep all three of them viable candidates.

[Renata]

Because it seems to have gone unnoticed. The holocron is very specific in stating that the Dark One and the Sith Lord cannot be found via normal investigation. (There are ways, but I won't go into detail publicly)
If they turn up innocent (whatever that is) or one gets some random result, I don't know. But one thing is clear, to catch them, scan result will neither be useful to prove someone's guilt, nor to disprove them.

I did notice. My first instinct on the matter is that godfathers should always turn up as "normal townie" to typical scans, else what's the point of having them. Especially in a game like this, where powers accumulate. TinCow or any of the other people lynched/killed early on due to misleading scan results could as easily have been the Dark One or the Sith leader in that case, and then the game risks going off the rails.

[Joooray]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here -- surely by two nights after Beskar's death you'd expect there to be a new apprentice, or at least you'd expect that there could be one, issues of timing and potential restrictions on recruitment aside.

Cecil said that there was a rise in kills after Sasaki rejoined. Looking at the write-ups there are already as many Sith kills before as after, as far as I saw, so I find I can find no prove for the Sith Lord suddenly starting to kill. (Does this make sense? I'm a bit confused at the moment myself)
I don't know if and how the Dark One kills and I only looked only at the early write ups, that's why I'm uncertain if Sasakit could be the Dark One.

Belisarius II died a Dark Jedi. What did he do prior to his death to influence that, or did he start the game that way?

Unfortunately I don't have any information about that.
There were few vig-kills during this time, if I remember correctly, so I guess he either was one from the start or he became one through the use of abilities.

[Diamondeye]

Reasoning on Kagemusha? I'm reading everything out of order as usual, but I did notice your vote for him, and there was no comment attached. What makes him more worthy of a vote than Sasaki, in your eyes?

He's lurking, galore.

More like "very little light side in him", wasn't it? Without knowing how a Sith apprentice or random dark jedi would scan, you can't be certain that isn't exactly how they'd turn up. In fact this from pever:

suggests strongly that that's the case. Cecil, the "chosen one", was probably at the light side extreme. He'd have turned up entirely light. The Dark One and the Sith leader at the other end, no light at all. Everyone else, including some of the bad guys/neutrals, somewhere in between.

I do think there is a point that the Dark One himself or the Sith leader would be less likely to show up as something iffy than as something more clearly townie, which probabably does make Diamondeye unlikely to be either of those things.

I like your thinking... It might be that I'll have to commit fewer atrocities to "fall" and be a dark jedi, in that case.
Are the investigations from before or after the death of Ironside? I have the impression that the former is the case, which would make it impossible for me to be a sith apprentice at the time of the investigation. Since you don't think I'm the Dark One or the Sith Master (and you're right), that would practically prove that I'm not anti-town. Which would be somewhat a relief as it would take two lynches to get rid of me - a steep price to prove what I already know to be true, and a waste of precious time.

On another note; Have you (Renata) ever been the target of a Sith attack? You say you have a Dark Side Lightsaber Form, and as far as I know, you've snuggly lived through the game until now with no major attention drawn to you. I suggest someone scans Renata and reports to the ghosts at some point.

@TinCow: It's "Diamondeye"

[Sasaki Kojiro]

unvote, vote:Diana Abnoba

I don't think going after Dark Jedi is a good strategy. I'm doubtful about greyblades-sith pretending to not know that ironsides is dead.

[Renata]

He's lurking, galore.

Right, I just found your comment on that.

He's been lurkish and is on Renata's list, so I just wanted to prompt him a bit.

"Just wanted to prompt him a bit" does not equal "more worthy of a vote than someone (Sasaki) I say I find suspicious and have voted for (multiple times, right?) in the past." Your voting on this lacks internal consistency.

I like your thinking... It might be that I'll have to commit fewer atrocities to "fall" and be a dark jedi, in that case.

Or you already are one.

Are the investigations from before or after the death of Ironside? I have the impression that the former is the case, which would make it impossible for me to be a sith apprentice at the time of the investigation.

Before, I believe, and you're right enough on that.

Since you don't think I'm the Dark One or the Sith Master (and you're right), that would practically prove that I'm not anti-town.

Neutrals are certainly not *pro*-town. It would fit your behavior, here and in a few other places throughout the game. You could also have been recruited to replace Ironside, though that would not be an explanation for your previous scan result, only a potential consequence of it.

Which would be somewhat a relief as it would take two lynches to get rid of me - a steep price to prove what I already know to be true, and a waste of precious time.

Which you were so kind to point out to us, all but unprompted, on the first or second day of the game, and which up to and including now continues to dissuade your lynch at all, regardless of investigation findings or behavior.

On another note; Have you (Renata) ever been the target of a Sith attack? You say you have a Dark Side Lightsaber Form, and as far as I know, you've snuggly lived through the game until now with no major attention drawn to you. I suggest someone scans Renata and reports to the ghosts at some point.

I'll leave the telling the Dark One, the Sith, and the Dark Jedi what the rest know to someone else. I'll say this: pever has known my identity, the color of my lightsaber, and my active capabilities (if any) since he first became a force ghost. And it is USE (active use, at that, not merely choosing it for defense when you are not attacked) of such a form or power that leads to the dark side, not mere possession of it, which is as far as I know random. Ask ATPG about that, Diamondeye, if this is not just a defensive smear. I did.

Ask yourself also why I would comment on having Juyo II and give the warning I did about it and other such forms/powers if I were not a townie. No one, not even pever, knew I had it before then -- I haven't bothered updating him on defenses and passive things. Mafia don't often call negative attention to themselves like that. But heck if they don't like to accuse people based on something that is superficially, but not ACTUALLY, telling of a bad alignment.

[Kagemusha]

So if we now have two kind of results saying Jooray is "not strong with light side" and that "he is susceptible to the Dark side, and may already be turned to the Dark Side".
How can we monitor him? If he is susceptible ro the Dark side, wouldnt he be a perfect candidate for the Sith to convert, while the new result says he could even be turned to dark side? I cant understand why he should be kept alive. Vote: Jooray

[autolycus]

Cecil's points seem to have been answered. Our leaders who have joined the force seem inclined to leave Jooray in power, so unvote, vote: Diamondeye.

[Joooray]

So if we now have two kind of results saying Jooray is "not strong with light side" and that "he is susceptible to the Dark side, and may already be turned to the Dark Side".
How can we monitor him? If he is susceptible ro the Dark side, wouldnt he be a perfect candidate for the Sith to convert, while the new result says he could even be turned to dark side? I cant understand why he should be kept alive. Vote: Jooray

You misunderstand the concept of recruitment in this game. The Sith won't recruit until one of them dies, and when they recruit, at least the Sith Lord can pretty much recruit almost anybody. That's what the holocron says.
Have you even bothered to read my last posts? Or why do you bring up these old scan results? Have you read what I said about the the interpretation of scan results?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

unvote, vote:kagemusha

Sith are dark jedi hunting rather than scum hunting, and that post takes the cake in that regard.

can't be bothered to reread extensively and see who else has been doing it

[Kagemusha]

unvote, vote:kagemusha

Sith are dark jedi hunting rather than scum hunting, and that post takes the cake in that regard.

can't be bothered to reread extensively and see who else has been doing it

Fos Sasaki. Have you lost your logic somewhere along the way? If we have a grandmaster suspectiple to the darkside and Igno just killed a sith.Who would the other Sith convert if he had even a cell of brain left?Edit: That should answer your post also Jooray.

[Renata]

the dark one is immune to all but 1 type of scan, that is only available to the grandmaster. Theres a bunch of GM powers.

As to keeping an eye of Joooray...don't ask the impossible. I know the roughly what he can do, and how much of it. If he attacks someone, we will know.

The darkside powers are quite obvious that they are darkside (like the force coversion - converts to sith, thats darkside. Theres a few defence ones that are darkside, but jedi dont have a way to learn them.
Jedi powers
Universal powers
Sith powers

You have to be jedi to get jedi ones, sith to get sith ones (with a few exceptions) and anyone can get universal.

That's pretty much understood; my question was about the Jedi/universal ones whose use leads toward the dark side -- do you know any of them besides Juyo II? Even if the Dark Jedi are nothing more than survivors, which is far from certain, I see no reason to encourage the unknowing production of more of them.

[Renata]

Cecil's points seem to have been answered. Our leaders who have joined the force seem inclined to leave Jooray in power, so unvote, vote: Diamondeye.

Why?

[Greyblades]

unvote, vote:Diana Abnoba

I don't think going after Dark Jedi is a good strategy. I'm doubtful about greyblades-sith pretending to not know that ironsides is dead.

...
Sorry wasnt paying attention.
I think i preferred it being believed as scummy than stupid.

[Renata]

So if we now have two kind of results saying Jooray is "not strong with light side" and that "he is susceptible to the Dark side, and may already be turned to the Dark Side".
How can we monitor him? If he is susceptible ro the Dark side, wouldnt he be a perfect candidate for the Sith to convert, while the new result says he could even be turned to dark side? I cant understand why he should be kept alive. Vote: Jooray

If the result says he could be turned to the dark side, then he could not have been recruited already, right? If the recruitment happened prior to last night, then he should not be a new apprentice, period. If the recruitment happened during last night, it's not so clear, but it's definitely not an indication that he WAS converted, which is how you're presenting it here.

[Kagemusha]

If the result says he could be turned to the dark side, then he could not have been recruited already, right? If the recruitment happened prior to last night, then he should not be a new apprentice, period. If the recruitment happened during last night, it's not so clear, but it's definitely not an indication that he WAS converted, which is how you're presenting it here.

Maybe i am reading into those results differently then you do, but how i understand is that if he is suspectible to dark side.To me it would mean that he can be recruited by the Sith. I cant get where it is saying about certain time for recruitment.Maybe someone ought to scan him again tonight in order to see if the result has changed and maybe then we might possibly understand also bit more about these scanning results.
What i am saying is that if Igno killed a Sith the previous night, while Jooray is suspectible to dark side.Why would any sith pass an opportunity to convert a jedi grandmaster who might be the strongest jedi currently to the dark side? It would be utterly stupid for an mafia to pass such a chance.

[TinCow]

I'm not really feeling the Diamondeye case at the moment. His conversation with Renata just isn't pinging my scumdar. I just did a quick check of Diana's posts, which turns out to be very easy since she's only made 14. She posts regularly, voting like clockwork nearly ever day, without much more. The summary thread only gives a single example of a game with her as mafia: Fight at Inishmore. Review of her posts in that game shows a similar posting pattern, including using RL as an excuse for lack of posting frequency. Thus...

Unvote; Vote: Diana Abnoba

[Seon]

unvote: abstain vote Diana

It seems that she is the smartest choice today...at least from my point of view.

[Cecil XIX]

@cecil: I provided reasons for lynching nightbringer. I have pushed lynches on many people this game and so have many other people, so far bunches of townies have been lynched, you are not special--and I doubt anyone would forget that I started the day by quoting all your posts. Other than that, you seem to be conceding that there is no reason to think the person I replaced could have sent in kills so that a rise is evidence of nothing. So it seems your "sasaki is attempting to demoralize the town" conspiracy theory is all you have left.

All you did was quote Nightbringer like it was self-explanatory. What people would forget is that you brought up new names when we already have so many suspicious people to work through, and took specific steps to minimize the likely hood that people would blame you for a lynch. And now you're continuing your demoralizing with useless statements here and here. Tell me, how is that helpful?

Anyway, I'm not wild about lynching Diana, but she's a much better lynch than Joooray, who's been quite cooperative.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

@cecil: nightbringer got votes didn't he? I recall saying several things about him.

At the end of all GH's games where town hunkers down and catches the mafia, it's because they realize "oh crap, we've been lynching tons of townies and are in trouble". Mafia want the town to think everything is just dandy.

unvote, vote:diana

[Askthepizzaguy]

Diana Abnoba: (7) Jarema, Nightbringer, WEW, Ignoramus, Tincow, Seon, Sasaki

Joooray: (5) Robbiecon, God Emperor, Diana Abnoba, Nightbringer, Kagemusha

Greyblades: (3) ArpeggiateTHIS, Frozen in Ice, Joooray

Diamondeye: (3) Psychonaut, pevergreen, Autolycus

Sasaki: (2) Cecil, Chaotix,

Ironside: (1) Greyblades

Autolycus: (1) ByzantineKnight

Kagemusha: (1) Diamondeye,

Ignoramus: (1) Double A



The necessary number of votes (24) have been cast. Day will end at midnight tonight (less than 9 hours), giving the extra time to the night phase.

Phase continues until then.


Edit: Okay I see that Nightbringer has voted twice here. But he unvotes later.

[Diamondeye]

forum ate my reply. In short:
-I didn't intend a defensive smear, Renata, I merely realized it'd be worth looking closer at you. And I'm somewhat cooling on the Sasaki case since he's a replacement and I'm not very convinced that any of the "big bads" can be found among those. I want to pursue some other cases and give other people some attention.

[robbiecon]

forum ate my reply. In short:
-I didn't intend a defensive smear, Renata, I merely realized it'd be worth looking closer at you. And I'm somewhat cooling on the Sasaki case since he's a replacement and I'm not very convinced that any of the "big bads" can be found among those. I want to pursue some other cases and give other people some attention.

Still though, there have been some inactives who've not been replaced at all, doesn't it make sense that some more influential roles would be replaced as a priority to keep the flow of the game going.