Originally Posted by
a completely inoffensive name
I've got a bad feeling about this.
I have a good feeling about this. But nice movie reference.
Originally Posted by
Nightbringer
Ok, well I am going to stick with my vote: Khazaar from yesterday. I stated the reasons then but can reiterate then if someone requires that i do so.
I wonder... in a situation like this, should you always follow through on a lynch on a candidate that survived a lynch?
If so, Ignoramus/Joooray would have died a while back, Diana would be dead, Wideyedwanderer would be dead, and so on. But, Kagemusha would definitely be dead.
I'm not sure it's worth it to always do so.
But, if you're sure on a candidate, you lynch them, they survive, you attack them three times, they survive, and you're still pretty sure, why would you not lynch again?
I think it is a bad choice to not lynch in that situation.
However, I am also not a fan of shutting down discussion or debate. Nightbringer voting for a suspect that isn't Kage is fine here. There will still be a game after Kage's death, whenever that may be.
(as of this writing, Kage's fate hasn't been sealed yet. I predict with a 75% chance he will die, but town has a way of changing its mind after the halfway mark in a day phase. Time passes and people forget their original reasons.)
Originally Posted by
pevergreen
Hmm.
The sith have used the most powerful technique, and had the foresight to see through Joooray's cloak. Unfortunately, he didn't choose the right defence, even though he knew what it was.
If you hate my guts and refuse to talk to me, then please tell Beefy anything you did last night. I'd rather he know than neither of us know, otherwise, please tell me.
I promise you, once a sith dies, you won't have to put up with me for much longer after that. I just want to take one out.
Joooray was a sitting duck for days and days and days. Kage could have killed him no problem at any time.
Joooray finally gets Telekinetic Lightsaber Combat, and does not use it on the night Kage kills him with Oblivion.
So close.... so close.... Joooray, I'm sorry, but you were so very close. I know it hurts, man. That's rock paper scissors for you....
Originally Posted by
Khazaar
I think that the only reason that this game isn´t over is that the Dark Jedi and the Sith do not share exactly the same victory condition. Maybe we should mass reveal our names and see if we can work something from there...
I would. By now, the Sith have probably enough data to figure out who is who anyway.
Town must act as one.
Originally Posted by
Beskar
Told you Joooray was Dark Jedi... there are no 'vigilantes'.
This is pretty funny. Beskar is almost believable here, but you still have to tune him out.
Originally Posted by
a completely inoffensive name
This is false. I don't know how or why, but I am pretty sure Beskar is lying. Probably because he is Sith. Idk, maybe he just likes to feel good about himself by tricking other people with lies. Who knows.
Kind of gives away that he's the gold saber killer here, since the other one came forward.
Originally Posted by
TinCow
Vote: Kagemusha
This is why TinCow wins games; follow-through.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053234059
This post by pever was a good idea. I wish people had listened and gave a comment for each.
I would have INSISTED on it because I'm pushy like that.
Originally Posted by
pevergreen
green lightsaber vig, yellow lighsaber vig, emerald lightsaber vig, force...grip? kill, triple attack on kage, 3 jedi, attack on ig, force energy (possible second sith action), oblivion on joooray (possible third sith action).
Town is killing itsself.
Vote: kagemusha.
Here, pever is pulling his weight as town leader in a much more obvious way. This analysis is spot-on, as is the conclusion that town is killing itself, as is the vote on kage.
Three for three, excellent job pevergreen.
Originally Posted by
a completely inoffensive name
the green, yellow lightsabers belonged to those who died, the vigilantes used a blue and gold saber respectively.
Useful post by ACIN. At this time, ACIN is moving up the ranks of useful townies, because he is paying attention and actually making contributions here.
If only he'd stop killing innocent Jedi.... but hey, if he goes dark jedi and survives the game, it is these actions which win the game for him. High risk.
Originally Posted by
Ignoramus
Guys, I think the best way for us to win is to not kill. We're down to 19 - and among the 19 are the Sith Apprentice, Sith Lord, and Dark One.
According to the Jedi Holocron, the Sith Master and Dark One are so powerful that even a group of vigs has an extremely low chance of success. The surest way to elimate them is by lynching - nothing but Force Breath can help them there. I'd also advise against revealing info - the Sith would pick us off lick flies.
I thus have every suspicion that Kage must be the Sith or the Dark One, so Vote: Kagemusha.
No, I disagree.
Lynch the Dark One, and then all the vigilantes vig-kill the same target.
That shows they are occupied during the evening, and aren't the ones doing Sith kills.
The Sith can still fool you here, but they both have to give up one of their attack slots. It's a seriously good strategy.
Also, lynch Master, then vig-kill the apprentice ASAP before she can recruit someone.
Originally Posted by
Andres
I know some of you dislike metagaming, but the fact that Warman is still alive at this stage of the game is suspicious in itself...
I dislike metagaming, and I still disagree. It proves nothing, just like Ignoramus showing interest in the game.
Warman is innocent, and his being alive is simply a result of no one having successfully killed him yet. With two Sith factions, that's also true for everyone.
Originally Posted by
pevergreen
ACIN/warman/cpt blackadder/ichigo/khaan/double a.
But what can we do at this point.
Only this.
Unvote: Kage, Vote: Warman
pevergreen demonstrates why metagaming is so bad.
Everyone he mentions here? Innocent.
And the vote switch is worse.
Don't metagame. Even if you won that way, how hollow would it be? At least vote randomly if you're not going to make a case on someone. That way you can say "oooh wasn't I lucky" instead of "I won because this player is always supposed to be dead, and he wasn't" which is lame.
My opinion, feel free to disagree. Maybe some players want to live sometimes.
Originally Posted by
TinCow
I really think we need to follow through on Kage. His behavior yesterday was super scummy. He had Force Breath and claims Force Ghost, both of which would be expected for the Dark Lord or the Sith Master. He also survived an attack by three vigilantes, which is consistent with what Ignoramus just said about the Holocron.
5 stars for Tincow.
Originally Posted by
Andres
Didn't Ignoramus himself have Force Breath and didn't he himself survive a few vig attempts?
If he says we must lynch Kage for that, then we should lynch him as well, no?
Odds-wise, it makes him more likely to be a Sith, but not a Sith here.
Very few people have force ghost, half of them are Sith.
Originally Posted by
TinCow
No, because Ignoramus has not behaved anywhere near as scummy as Kage. Kage's posts yesterday were some of the scummiest behavior I've ever seen in a mafia game. Nothing has changed to make him a bad lynch choice again today.
Bolded for emphasis. Even with a generic case like having Force Ghost, narrowing it down with specifics (also acting scummy) is why Tincow succeeds with a generic case.
It's generic but also specific. It is very excellent townie play.
And, from my vantage point, the logic holds for more than just Kagemusha. People found Psychonaut scummy yesterday, he's got Ghost and Breath. He is a Sith. Renata has Ghost and she's a Sith, although no one finds her scummy yet.
If you lynch everyone who has Ghost, you will find all the current Sith and lose only a few Jedi.
Originally Posted by
Andres
Kage is just being his stubborn self
He is being his stubborn self, but does that mean he's innocent?
He's putting up a good defense. One I think that does closely match how he'd behave as innocent. It just so happens, in this case, he is guilty.
His behavior before he was put on the hotseat is really where you should make your case, because you run into confirmation bias afterward, but honestly I think his defense triggered people's behavior, and not randomly or for bandwagon purposes either. Everyone seemed to add individual and unique reasons why they found his defense to be a cover for Sithness. Even Andres felt Kage was scum earlier on in the game. He just seems to have bought Kage's story/behavior here and changed his mind.
Kudos to Kage on that.
Originally Posted by
TinCow
I disagree. In any case, even if we're wrong about Kage, I don't see it causing much damage to the town. He claims Force Ghost, so he'll still be able to vote no matter what. Plus, he's clearly focused on killing and I'm in agreement with those people who say we need to stop the vig actions. So, in the worst case scenario where Kage is Jedi, we don't lose a town vote and we stop a vigilante. That's about as harmless an error as I can see. My money is still on Kage as Dark Lord or Sith Master though.
It's a fair assessment. Lynching all the jedi force ghosts is actually okay as long as you do the same for the sith. Preferably in the right order, though...
Originally Posted by
Beefy187
Vote: Kagemusha 
Beefy sticks to his guns, very admirably. I think he's usually one who can be persuaded or bargained with or otherwise convinced. Here, he shows his iron will.
Originally Posted by
God Emperor
the attack on Joooray is the dark one doing that.
the attack on kagemusha... Well I would say Sith. . . We have 3 people attacking him. two of them are the same that attacked joooray some nights ago. The new person.. well if the two other are sith then either they just proved the law of two wrong, or dark jedi are licking boot. And if that is the case Dark Jedi, then you must have been mistaken at some point if you think sith would share victory with you ^^
most suggests that we should go after Kagemusha. With the Dark One attacking Joooray, and Kagemusha fends off 3 sith who uses skills like Ataru, Makashi, Force stasis, Chain lightning, lightning. So if it goes as it should Kagemusha is the Dark one.
God Emperor keeps up the pressure after death, helping the town by asking for Kage to be lynched again.
Originally Posted by
God Emperor
you are such a little sith/dark jedi
Referring to Ignoramus, the strongest and most light-side Jedi there is alive at the moment.
So, can't win em all, GE.
Originally Posted by
Kagemusha
People are attacking me using force lightning and i am a on the dark side of force? Last night i did what i could in order to protect myself and i am sure i was scanned by multiple people.
If you look at what i have been doing trough out the game and think about what Sith Lord or the Dark one should be supposedly doing. You should understand that i am not either of those roles. If mafias goal is to kill us all, why as mafia i would concetrate on scanning people and giving out information to the town. I cant quite recall how many nights i have been scanning people, but pever can tell that it has been long time. Not right from the start as i havent had an investigation ability for that long, but ever since i got that ability.
Why would i waste my time pretending i am someone able to investigate, when as Sith i could just say i cant scan people and concentrate on killing people. That would be absolutely crappy tactics for mafia. I am now the third eldest master on this ship and one no one can kill me quite easily. You can lynch me and i cant act as force ghost afterwards helping town ofcourse, but if the Sith are as hard to kill as they supposedly are. Who is going to get rid of them, if you lynch all the powerful pro town people? Also Tincow i dont get where you are getting that i am focused on killing when i havent made a single vigilante attack.
Some of you think that i am quite the crafty player, Tincow clearly being not one of them as you think i would give myself up so easily as mafia, but do i have to be killed as default just because i am who i am. In my opinion i am quite more valuable to the town with cleared by scans and helping the town to win the game, rather then lynched because some of the town people seem to be paranoid about me.
Kagemusha's night defenses are indefensible.
He would have to claim Force Sever or Force Plague or make one up. And if he does, they will know these are advanced dark side powers, while Kage scans as advanced light side.
The contradiction is the smoking gun everyone misses, because no one asks which defenses he used.
Missed opportunity, everyone. Missed opportunity.
Originally Posted by
TinCow
Cleared by scans? Now you're contradicting yourself. Yesterday you knew as well as the rest of us that the only scan that would provide evidence about the Dark Lord and Sith Master was the GM investigation. You said as much by repeatedly asking for Joooray to clear you last night with an investigation:
Last night Joooray was killed and thus cannot clear you with an investigation. Yet somehow you now think you are "cleared by scans"?
Tin "The Hammer" Cow, everyone.
Originally Posted by
Khazaar
Well i don´t think revealing names will hlep the sith much unless they need to target a specific player. Since I´ve been attacked twice already I think the opposition knwos who I am anyway. I´m Jedi Master Kel Dih-Mar I doubt I will survive a third attempt so I see no reason not to reveal. I think we should really lynch inactives, there´s bound to be one bad apple between them...
Vote: Warman
No Sith among the inactives. A war between townies and further townie/vig-related deaths will only help the Sith win.
Revealing that he's Kel Dih-Mar, a new Master, reveals also he's one of the weakest Jedi in the game, and that helps the Sith.
Originally Posted by
Kagemusha
I have to wonder Tincow. Why are you so thirsty of my blood? I said i would be valuable once cleared by investigations. Do you want to see my posts scummy so hard that you start making up things? If the town wants i can be assigned my personal force ghost that will watch my every move until i am cleared. I cant but just wonder why nothing else seems to make you happy then my death, maybe the force ghosts should point me towards you direction in order to find out your true motivations. Maybe you are doing the bidding of your master so the town will further destroy itself?
Oh gawd.
Entertaining and forceful, but I know I'd be voting for this. This kind of defense will push some of the more indecisive people away, though, so it is worth it.
Still, it just reeks so bad. The OMGUS is so pungent it makes my eyes water.
Originally Posted by
Seon
Actually, I wonder whether or not Kagemusha's guilty. Most of the kills done so far by Sith Lord and the Dark One relied on force powers, or at least I think. Kagemusha seems to be a master of blades, unlike anything witnessed so far. If the Sith Lord or the Dark One had this much skill with the blade, then surely he would have used it more often.
Seon drinks Kage's wine.
Originally Posted by
pevergreen
The problem is Kage, that we don't know enough about the sith.
I had a case pointed out to me earlier, and I spent over an hour going through writeups and PMs and posts, all to conclude that...it was still possible.
The fact is, we don't know what the sith can or can not do. We know they can't learn light side powers once becoming a sith. It is unlikely that investigations are a light side power though. If we go back and look at the night actions for each night, the sith could easily be investigating, and posing as someone.
Without the dual-GM investigation, no one is 100% jedi, unless force ghosted. Even a sith can become a force ghost, but thankfully, no sith force ghosts yet.
We have 19 people alive, and 3 confirmed anti-town roles alive, who knows how many dark jedi.
Unvote: Warman, Vote: Kage
I'm sorry, but I believe this is the best course of action that leads to a non-sith victory.
Don't apologize, you're doing fine.
Originally Posted by
ByzantineKnight
Really guys? Lynch TinCow... He's trying way too hard to be helpful
Except if he's town, that's pretty much a necessary thing. And he is town.
Originally Posted by
Kagemusha
So you prepared to kill basically anyone at this point who is powerful, without a second thought? What happens when all the powerful pro town people are dead? The Sith and the Dark one will kill the rest with ease. With this rate of night kills. You cant afford to lynch wrong people. You and i both know that i asked for you to get me scanned the same time i revealed at you. Why didnt you have that done? As i said in pm already.I cant understand your motivations and dont trust your judgement either at this point. I have to ask from you also as from the write up it reveals that the ones that attacked me were using dark side powers and also some of them atleast were cloaked. Did you set that attack up? If you did, then i have to think that you are played by the Sith or the Dark One, as your actions have got quite a lot people already killed.
I can count for each and every night action of mine. Tell when i have acquired what power and you have knowledge of lot what i ahve been doing. Still you dont even give me a change to redeem myself in the eyes of the town. Have it occurred to you that maybe you are yourself influenced by the mafia who may be playing you a fool?
Oh, this post however is a masterpiece. I like this defense, it attacks pevergreen's weak point, which is his view of himself as a townie leader and his lack of confidence in his own decisions.
Very nice jab. That one probably stung a little.
The rhetoric about accounting for all his night actions is pretty forceful, but in his case, ultimately inconclusive.
If he could point to a night he defended someone with Meld, or vigilante killed a Sith, he'd be in like Flynn. That's why he has such powers, to really and ultimately fool the town hardcore.
Sadly, he didn't use these powers to clear himself. I really think he could have found his way out here with a simple, calm defense and "I defended so and so night 12, while the Sith were killing. That proves I'm not the dark one" when it doesn't prove that, but it would meet EVERYONE's expectations for such.
That's the move which could have won the game for him. That's why I made it possible. I wanted to challenge everyone's assumptions about how a mafioso will behave, but it was not to be.
Originally Posted by
TinCow
With all due respect, if Joooray could be killed at night, I don't think a Master, even one as strong as you, has a good chance at surviving a determined attack. I see no chance whatsoever for the Jedi to win via night actions. Victory has to come through lynching.
There's just no denying this logic.
Originally Posted by
Kagemusha
From the people so far suggested,I think i was wrong with Tincow yesterday as it would seem he is somewhat objective, or then fooling me with a great act. But i think the best case right now is to Vote: Khazaar.Apart the case Nightbringer has shown. Late yesterday when majority were voting me he decided not to join the wagon, but instead decided to vote Diana Abnoba, who has been unresponsive for ages.EDIT:
That is only because town is so disorganized. For example why wasnt anyone protecting Jooray last night? For example Ignoramus.Maybe pever or Beefy could answer that? If we are not accounted for at slightest, nor we have any coordination in our night orders.I dont believe we can win. That is not an excuse to kill powerfull pro town people, unless it really is an excuse and the mafia are playing the town from inside out.
Kagemusha's point is very valid, dangerously so.
This might almost be convincing, except lecturing the townies how to behave is one of my scumtells. Every Sith has done that this game.
Originally Posted by
Cecil XIX
Yes, I think this is obvious by now.
If what you said is true, that would mean the sith Lord himself is one of the three who got beaten so easily. I consider that an impossibility.
vote: Kagemusha , FOS: God Emperor
Zan Finnay's ability to wishstand three attackers with ease points to him being the Sith Lord. It was the Dark One who killed the Grandmaster, as evidenced by the mechanical breathing. Giving scanning results to the town is no defense: A Sith master wouldn't scan his starting apprentice in the first place; it's a harmless way to build townie cred.
Pretty much in agreement here.
But the Sith Lord himself WAS one of the three who got his butt handed to him.
I hope Kage smiles about that. He outranked Psychonaut by 4 full ranks. That's like a Grandmaster pwning a Jedi Initiate.
Psycho never had a chance against this guy with the saber. Only his tier III force powers have a chance at beating Kage.
Originally Posted by
pevergreen
I have said for multiple days now that the town is killing itself, and that it needs to stop.
I know you asked to be scanned, but you know scans can't prove anything. You're demanding proof that you yourself have stated cannot be obtained.
[edit for length]
You can tell us what you did each night, but the fact is unless you appear in the writeup, it can be faked. Even then, unless you appear performing two actions, you can still be lieing.
If we prolong the game long enough for the grand master to obtain the only way to prove innocence/guilt, then we have a chance, along with good old fashioned in thread stuff.
Town does need to stop killing itself. Those weak vig attacks won't do anything against any of the Sith right now. They need to be fully boosted and using the right form AND using an ability that can see through Cloak for Renata alone. They can't even hit Psychonaut while he's using Trance.
That's the tell, though; if you can't attack someone with Investigation II combined with the vig, they are a grandmaster or they are Sith. That's how investigation II can catch sith.
Investigation I allows you to find people using cloak or above (when it fails, thats the most likely reason) and people who were using active powers in the game opening (half of them were Sith). If someone claims to be inactive but Investigation I says otherwise, they're lying, and therefore probably Sith.
Investigation II can catch Renata being not light side and see through her cloak. That combined with a vig kill can also attack Renata. Investigation II can locate people using Trance when combined with a vig kill, as it will fail to penetrate Trance. The only people using trance are Psycho and Kage. In that sense it's the most useful and widely available investigation of them all.
Investigation III will tell you outright that Kage is dark side, which contradicts his strong with the light side story. Nailed immediately. Tells you outright for the Lord and Apprentice that they are Sith without any doubt.
Investigation IV tells you dark side and non-recruitable. That means they are Sith, but this investigation can be fooled. It is useful to use on Renata when combined with Investigation II, or on Psychonaut BEFORE he got Trance. It will become useful again after Kage and Psycho are dead.
All 4 investigations can root out the Sith. All 4 were useful. All 4 were not game-enders for the Sith because how to use them was not known, and not all were always available to everyone.
Originally Posted by
pevergreen
This may be true, but you don't automatically gain every single power once you become grandmaster. Neither Joooray, nor I believe Ig, have the force powers required to do the scan. We have to wait for Ig to aquire them.
Its like saying a jedi master can use a roleblocking power. Why can't everyone roleblock now? Because not everyone has the force power.
I wouldn't have revealed this part. That's not necessary for the town or the Sith to learn.
Originally Posted by
Cecil XIX
Yes, I've seen them. Only three of them oddly enough. I also know you were using an active ability on night one.
Nice shot, Cecil. This is nearly a smoking gun, because very few people had such powers on night one, including other Knights.
Originally Posted by
Jarema
FoS: Kage, Diana
Town should try to lynch our old suspects
Nice pressure, Jarema.
Originally Posted by
Chaotix
Vote: Kagemusha
Same case as yesterday, plus the fact that no one should be strong enough to withstand three attacks, two of which came from fighters of equal skill.
Good pressure, but those attacks weren't all that strong. Saber and lightning are the two easiest to defend powers in the game.
Saber can be stopped with push, an initiate ability.
Lightning can be stopped with a saber alone, with the right stance. It also has a myraid defenses.
Jedi's killing powers were really only useful to kill Sith apprentices or Sith with the wrong defenses selected, or when combined with investigation II to find Trance users.
They were otherwise nearly meaningless. However, Final Judgment is formidable and very much useful to the Jedi GM.
Re: Star Wars: Fall of the Order [Information Thread]
Back to work, Jedi.... 
ing Kypaz!"
Sasaki is not to be trusted, he is only to be enjoyed.
.
But I am glad you see reason.
). Otherwise, there would have been much more people who fell by the blade.
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