Today, I was rather violently accosted by a rather intriguing gentleman

[Hax]

I would like to inform you of a certain situation that has transpired today on the premises of my university here in the Netherlands: I was accosted quite agressively, nearly to the point of violently, by a certain gentleman who is currently also enrolled at our university.

Dear ORG, please forgive the rather prosaic style which was the result of an evening shared with a bottle of Glenfiddich. However, when I was writing this particular piece of information I was reminded of the "when is violence justified thread", and so I decided to crosspost this here.

Basically, there are certain things I'm wondering about, and seeing how I hold almost all of you in high esteem, I assumed that you would be able to assist me:

1) Is it surprising that this happened at a university? Should I be surprised? Is it simply another aspect of growing up?
2) When does a person decide that a violent approach makes sense? How does this actually work?
3) What should I do? I have already collected information about whom I can contact within the framework of the university? Would taking legal action make any sense?

I'm seriously never in these kinds of situations, so what do I actually do? Gah?!

EDIT: Dear Lord, it seems that my stuff got copied incorrectly. Let me try some stuff.

EDIT II: Can't seem to get it right. Will link to my blog.

EDIT III: It is now a link.

[johnhughthom]

I do wonder if the intriguing gentleman thought you were mocking him? Perhaps what you thought to be a reasoned argument came across as you making fun of him, certainly the way you describe the situation makes me think that is a possibility. If someone takes something as personally as he appeared, often there is little that you can say that will make him see your side of the debate.

In no way am I saying that you behaved badly, but sometimes the only way to handle a situation is to tell someone to go away unpleasantly.

[Hax]

I'd suppose so, but I didn't use the exact same style of speech as I did when writing it down. Did I mention I asked him to actually sit down and talk about it.

Additionally, would mockery warrant a violent response?

[johnhughthom]

I'd suppose so, but I didn't use the exact same style of speech as I did when writing it down. Did I mention I asked him to actually sit down and talk about it.

That's the thing that grabs me, you seem to think a university is apart from the rest of the world. To me, as much as educating a university should prepare someone for the outside world, and the fact is, there are people out there who don't want to sit down and talk about it, their opinion is correct, and nothing you say will dissuade them. By continuing to treat the situation like a classroom debate, you probably angered the intriguing gentleman more.

Additionally, would mockery warrant a violent response?

Of course it shouldn't, but it did. And you probably should have seen it coming.

As for how I would handle it from here? Forget about it, move on and learn from it. There is a time for debate, a time to shut up and a time to take it outside.

[HopAlongBunny]

I think you handled yourself well.

Sometimes you will meet individuals who simply want the violence. Obliging them might turn out well, but it sounds more like this person was going for a "double win".

You take the bait=>beat the snot out of him=>he goes to administration and pulls a "poor me" routine=>you get flayed. Or he beats the snot out of you, and you get no backing from admin; I would hazard to bet he's done it before...

So Hurray! You did not take the bait :) Often the best move when drinking.

[Vladimir]

Dirty Arabs?

Seriously though, some people are conditioned to think that some actions of offenses demand a violent reaction. You can't change that but you can look for indicators and deal with them.

[Fisherking]

It sounds to me that you have already lost the contest.

Obviously you were politically incorrect, or seen so by the person you reported the incident to.

To them, you were insensitive, and likely a bigot, simply because the guy says he was offended.

It will be interesting to see if you can find anyone in the administration who thinks you were within you rights and the individual was being a jerk. Good Luck.

[Fragony]

Muhahaha Hax you racist you

[Husar]

Complete and utter lack of negotiation skills.

It seems completely pointless either way, I say live and let him live in his own magic world of biased happiness.

[Hax]

Thanks for all your responses.
@<a href="https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=26454" target="_blank">jht</a>: I suppose that's where our opinions diverge, then. To be fair, I feel that the environment within the boundaries of an academy is per definitio. one of debate and discussion and I don't feel that its primary purpose is to prepare people for day-to-day life, especially within the Dutch context, where most students generally don't live on campus.
@<a href="https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=3655" target="_blank">HopAlongBunny</a>: yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking to, although it's worth noting that at the moment that this ruffian encroached upon my personal space I was completely sober. Besides, if I would have hit him back, I'd pretty much lose whatever moral highground I had.
@<a href="https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=10953" target="_blank">Fisherking</a>: Right you are. What happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones"? I'll get to that.
@<a href="https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=3193" target="_blank">Fragony</a>/Husar: Yes.


Actually, the plot thickens. I was walking from my home to the university when my supervisor phoned me and asked me to come into her office: apparently, the two supervisors (one for the BA and the other for the MA track) had read my blog and asked for clarification. They asked me to describe precisely what had occured, and they fully agreed that the action that our fellow undertook was completely out of line, stressing the point that within the university, you ought to be able to feel safe and secure and to have the possibility to express whatever opinion. They also filed a formal complaint and directed it to those responsible for handling cases of undesirable behaviour, so that's that.

[Husar]

This is completely useless, what you really need is a gun for self-defense so you can shoot the guy in the back when he runs away with your lunch.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well, he doesn't seem like much of a gentleman at all! :snob:

Seriously though, I am always cautious of dealing with authorities, and the initial reaction they gave towards you is why.

Still, I'm glad that it appears that they realise this guy was in the wrong. But I don't think you should pursue things too far, it doesn't seem the sort of incident worth anyone getting in a whole lot of trouble for. He might be an alright guy who took things the wrong way, maybe he has been the victim of racism in the past and took a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.

[Beskar]

Authorities generally don't do anything, unfortunately, as they are mostly hand-tied with what they can do.

He might be an alright guy who took things the wrong way, maybe he has been the victim of racism in the past and took a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.

No, he was clearly a bully looking for trouble. A victim generally might get upset, might mention something then walk away and at first this might have the case as he failed to understand the crux of the discussion. However, from the rest, you can see how the gentleman was clearly sizing the group up, he was trying to examine their reactions and like a predatory animal wanted to use raw physical strength to make himself feel powerful. I do know what Hax looks like and he is no stone cold Steve Austin, anyone who wants to try to get him into a street brawl is clearly trying to pick for an easy target.

[Sarmatian]

There was several of you and he was alone. Why didn't you beat the poop out of him?

But, you decided to take it up to the people in the offices. You certainly made their day. If they take you seriously, that means a lot more work for them, potentially bad rep for the university, blah, blah, blah... The easiest thing for them is to just drop it with "no harm done" mantra. When you've already chosen this route, don't stop and continue to pester them demanding action.

Next time, beat the poop out of him.

[Ironside]

No, he was clearly a bully looking for trouble. A victim generally might get upset, might mention something then walk away and at first this might have the case as he failed to understand the crux of the discussion. However, from the rest, you can see how the gentleman was clearly sizing the group up, he was trying to examine their reactions and like a predatory animal wanted to use raw physical strength to make himself feel powerful. I do know what Hax looks like and he is no stone cold Steve Austin, anyone who wants to try to get him into a street brawl is clearly trying to pick for an easy target.

It could be subconcious (probably is), but yeah anyone who is avoiding an actual debate for trying to start a beating instead is certainly acting like a bully.

Authorities generally don't do anything, unfortunately, as they are mostly hand-tied with what they can do.

They do get a bit less limitations if there's a pattern at least. So if this is standard behavior for our intriguing gentleman, then they can have better enforcement than a few stern words.

[HopAlongBunny]

Sounds to me like you won. With Uni personnel involved the event is swallowed by the system. Having it advanced by your supervisor keeps it all nicely bureaucratically correct and can be dealt with internally; much to their relief.

Let it "work out" on its own and move on :)

[Strike For The South]

Establish your own unilateral solution and break his nose.

[Major Robert Dump]

Trying to pursue the matter further is pointless. If he belongs to what the university views as a "minority" or "protected" or "vulnerable" group, then short of murder or grievous assault he can do no wrong, and in the case he does do wrong, then it is a result of him being oppressed for so long. It is impossible for racial or ethnic or religious minorities to be racist, Chris Matthews says so. You lose.

[Sarmatian]

Trying to pursue the matter further is pointless. If he belongs to what the university views as a "minority" or "protected" or "vulnerable" group, then short of murder or grievous assault he can do no wrong, and in the case he does do wrong, then it is a result of him being oppressed for so long. It is impossible for racial or ethnic or religious minorities to be racist, Chris Matthews says so. You lose.

Won't work. Both Hax and the guy are Arabs.

[Papewaio]

Won't work. Both Hax and the guy are Arabs.

Fifty shades of Arab. The litmus test for racism is a fairly low one based on the person feeling insulted. That we don't expect mature debate but a physical thrashing is a sad reflection on society.

That we expect that debate should be in Uni but not outside. It's a very materialistic view that a boundary of atoms should determine thinking over brawn.

=][=

Publicity, another form of perception management, gets more mileage then most other processes.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think you made a fundamental error when you described "Arab" as a matter of self-identification rather than an ethnicity, this was doubtless what offended your assailant.

Identity is a touchy subject when that identity is fairly "safe" and prosperous. We had this argument a few months ago about whether you're Dutch or not - turns out your mother is Dutch, so we agreed you definitely were.

What makes an Arab? Wheat makes an Englishman? a Frenchman?

Plenty of people will tell you blood (less so for the Frenchman) and arguing will like to get your teeth knocked out. You may be enlightened and post-ethnic, but you're a career academic, the thing to remember is that OUTSIDE our little fantasy world people don't care about having intelligent debates in the main, they care about food of the table, the price of petrol and who won the footie.

EDIT: Which is not to say that this man was at all justified.

Next time you meet someone like that, don't offer to debate with him because it will just wind him up more. Tell him you're sorry he's offended but you're not going to change your opinion. Use simple words and short sentences, not because he's stupid but because you're not showing off. If he wants to step outside tell him you're quite comfortable inside and don't fancy spending a night in the cells.

Because, lets face it, no good public fight ends before the police arrive.

[Fragony]

Its a sign of the times that people have trouble figuring out how to respond to violence, or the threat of violence, or just an antagonizing person. Short Answer: Punch 'em in the throat. Long Answer: Punch 'em in the throat, if you can get away with it. Or you can take the high-road, because fighting usually isn't worth it, but taking the high road usually means you'll have to keep taking the high road.

Chin is better, INSTANT KNOCKOUT

[Whacker]

Chin is better, INSTANT KNOCKOUT

Strike two.

Break their nose. Painful, eyes will tear up and vision will go to hell, not as easy to breathe, etc. Break nose and run.

Edit:

HAGGSE

[Fragony]

All those spots hurt your hand. If your victim doesn't see it coming, go for the throat. It's the comfy punch.

Kinda dangerous, they don't ought to drop permanently. Best way to avoid trouble, a slap with your palm moving upwards.

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&si...Tp1VeWf8stM%3A

Where it says musscle is the sweet-spot, it will hit like a brick. He will absolutely fall and think you are Hercules incarnated. Try it, palm of hand right there, slightly upwards. Needs some practise.

[Husar]

What if the other guy runs to the authorities with a bunch of witnesses then and Hax gets punished or even expelled?
Worth it?

[Fragony]

What if the other guy runs to the authorities with a bunch of witnesses then and Hax gets punished or even expelled?
Worth it?

Hax being punished worth it? Always ;)

[Fisherking]

Hax did just fine. There was no reason to escalate the tense state. That happens after the other guy throws a punch, or a couple of punches. Once you meet force with force both of you are likely to be in trouble, in this day and age.

Punching someone in the throat is a quick way to jail.

[Fragony]

Punching someone in the throat is a quick way to jail.

Rightly so, you can kill someone with that if their windpipe gets broken

[Tellos Athenaios]

In no way am I saying that you behaved badly, but sometimes the only way to handle a situation is to tell someone to go away unpleasantly.

Exactly. Reading between the lines, our intriguing gentleman was the equivalent of a Youtube Commentard. Utterly limited in perspective and convinced the world is full of ignorant people who ought to shut up or made to; they can see clearly how they are right and you are wrong, but when pressed for clarification have nothing to offer beyond your supposed ignorance. You may have some entertaining results in trying to argue with them, but it is not good sport. Additionally it will almost certainly ruin your meal in the process and it is not good manners towards your friends and fellow diners.

I base this diagnosis on the following symptoms:

• Loudly intervenes in your discussion. Won't offer you an "excuse me", or any other indication of good manners.
• Proceeds to inform you that you are wrong, misguided, stupid and ignorant.
• Offers no argument to back up the previous assertion.
• Is all offended.

In such a condition they are incapable of understanding the subtleties of Arab identity, the Qu'ran or anything more subtle than "get lost" which I base on the fact they have shown themselves utterly incapable of grasping the subtlety of common courtesy. If some 16 odd years of parenting failed to teach them to recognise and apply that basic skill in life, subtlety is not going to win you any debates with them in the near term.

[Fragony]

Nice lesson to our Hax regardless heh, you know what they say, never be rude to an Arab. Monty Payton warned you. NEVER say that being Arab means nothing in the pressence of Arabs you couldn't have been more offensive, which I kinda like really