Nazi references, Part Deux

[al Roumi]

Where is the evidence that they beat immigrants up? They were charged because of the radio station, not violence.

And as you said yourself, they haven't openly incited violence and so they haven't broken the law, so...

Fair point, but presumably this is not just a Neo-nazi branded radio station. As well as playing bad rock it presumably (to constitute incitement to violence/hatred) must have broadcast Neo-Nazi ideas.

As Gaelic's article said, the madrassas routinely deny the Holocaust, and nothing happens.

And OK the law against Nazi beliefs is for everyone, you could ban any specific belief then say it's fair since it applies to everyone, but that's not how things work.

I actually went along with that article until that paragraph. You cry for "evidence" in your preceding response and then immediately drop that (commendable) desire to base an argument on fact and instead pick up your prejudice -or what could at best be called your gut sense. Which this twerp of a journo clearly also did. How many madrassas have YOU or HE been in where the holocaust is denied and hatred of jews is preached?

[Fragony]

Ask any history teacher on a school with enrichment about holocaust denial.

[al Roumi]

Ask any history teacher on a school with enrichment about holocaust denial.

1. That's not evidence
2. That's not madrassahs

[Fragony]

1. That's not evidence
2. That's not madrassahs

You recognise the fruit by the tree. They get teached somewhere

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ask any history teacher on a school with enrichment about holocaust denial.

'Enrichment about Holocaust denial' - that's just perfect.

Fragony is always right about these things:

Reuters – Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:25 NZDT

PARIS (Reuters) – Muslim pupils and parents in France are increasingly making religious demands on the state school system that teachers should rebuff by explaining the country’s secular principles, according to an official report.

The High Council for Integration (HCI) reported growing problems with pupils of immigrant backgrounds who object to courses about the Holocaust, the Crusades or evolution, demand halal meals and “reject French culture and its values.”

“It is becoming difficult for teachers to resist religious pressures,” said the report, published in draft form by the newspaper Journal du Dimanche over the weekend. The final report will be presented to the government next month.
“We should now reaffirm secularism and train teachers how to deal with specific problems linked to the respect for this principle,” it said.

http://olehgirl.com/?p=5006

It's not the Madrassas. Nowadays, teachers often drop teaching about the Holocaust because they don't want to face another classroom intifada. And that's the public/state/secular school system.

[rory_20_uk]

There was an interesting I saw on the BBC website which happened to be about the first female Jewish Rabbi in Germany.

In the article it mentioned how Jews in germany place secular, National law above religious law. This is something that should be expected of all religious groups. Of course some have grown up with the state and so will be very similar. But if that's a problem then find a country with views that are more similar.

[al Roumi]

Jews in germany place secular, National law above religious law. This is something that should be expected of all religious groups. Of course some have grown up with the state and so will be very similar. But if that's a problem then find a country with views that are more similar.

Its interesting you say this, and the tricky thing about reconciling/absorbing/integrating Islam into western societies is that it is such wide ranging religion. We could have a very interesting and enlightening discussion about it I'm sure. Some Muslims, like al-Qaradawi truly see it as an all encompassing credo, others like Dr Kamal Helbawi (also Muslim brotherhood of Egypt) are more embracing of democracy and liberty.

[rory_20_uk]

So is Christianity or Paganism.

The expectation should be that religions bend to state rules and laws, and not the other way around.

[gaelic cowboy]

Some years back there was a massive fight outside the main mosque in Ireland as the more integrated and basically Irish in everyday life group came to realise that there Mosque had been taken over by Sunni Islamo-Fascist's funded by that beacon of light Saudi Arabia.

Unfortunately they lost the fight which was an actual street battle outside the mosque but the cat was out of the bag the evil was here and it was determined to shape the minds of the young muslim.

The one group who routinely protest agianst them is naturally the small Shia community as they worry the Sunni are trying to bring there oppression with them into Ireland.

[Fragony]

'Enrichment about Holocaust denial' - that's just perfect.

Fragony is always right about these things:

It's not the Madrassas. Nowadays, teachers often drop teaching about the Holocaust because they don't want to face another classroom intifada. And that's the public/state/secular school system.

I don't understand these schools just flung them. These kids often are as daft a donkey they will never achieve anything education is wasted on them, they are ruining it for also not too bright but motivated ones. No such problem occur in schools for non-braindead, discussion yeah but no primitive rage.

[gaelic cowboy]

I actually went along with that article until that paragraph. You cry for "evidence" in your preceding response and then immediately drop that (commendable) desire to base an argument on fact and instead pick up your prejudice -or what could at best be called your gut sense. Which this twerp of a journo clearly also did. How many madrassas have YOU or HE been in where the holocaust is denied and hatred of jews is preached?

Myer's can often be a twerp your are correct in that allright but if you seriously think that the holocaust is not denied in madrasas then yer mad in the head.

He does indeed drop evidence etc for gut sense but I would rather live in a world of where Myer's gut ran the show than say this crowd European Council for Fatwa and Research who are also from Ireland and are the umbrella organisation for all of Europe headed by Yusuf al-Qaradawi

Statement by Yusuf

statement on Al-Jazeera on January 30, 2009, al Qaradawi said (as translated by MEMRI):
Throughout history, Allah has imposed upon the [Jews] people who would punish them for their corruption. The last punishment was carried out by Hitler. By means of all the things he did to them – even though they exaggerated this issue – he managed to put them in their place. This was divine punishment for them. Allah willing, the next time will be at the hand of the believers.

On the separation of state and church (secularism)[citation needed]: "Since Islam is a comprehensive system of `Ibadah (worship) and Shari'ah (legislation), the acceptance of secularism means abandonment of Shari'ah, a denial of the Divine guidance and a rejection of Allah’s injunctions. (...) the call for secularism among Muslims is atheism and a rejection of Islam. Its acceptance as a basis for rule in place of Shari'ah is a downright apostasy."

On equal rights for women[citation needed]: "Those misguided people cudgel their brains in finding out lame arguments that tend to give both males and females equal shares of inheritance ... it’s the nature of woman to be maintained and cared for by man ... irrespective of whether she is poor or rich." .

On democracy -where per definition a majority vote might differ from the commands in the Qur'an and Sunnah,[citation needed]: "the Shari'ah cannot be amended to conform to changing human values and standards, rather, it is the absolute norm to which all human values and conduct must conform ..." .

On the freedom of religion[citation needed]: "All Muslim jurists agree that the apostate is to be punished. However, they differ regarding the punishment itself. The majority of them go for killing; meaning that an apostate is to be sentenced to death." .

[al Roumi]

Statement by Yusuf Qaradawi:

Throughout history, Allah has imposed upon the [Jews] people who would punish them for their corruption. The last punishment was carried out by Hitler. By means of all the things he did to them – even though they exaggerated this issue – he managed to put them in their place. This was divine punishment for them. Allah willing, the next time will be at the hand of the believers.

Yep, that would IMO constitute holocaust denial and probably incitement to racial hatred too. What laws does EIRE have on these? I'm not sure Germany would/could prosecute as the organisation indeed seems to be based in Dublin (and probably so for that very reason).

[Beskar]

Yep, that would IMO constitute holocaust denial and probably incitement to racial hatred too. What laws does EIRE have on these? I'm not sure Germany would/could prosecute as the organisation indeed seems to be based in Dublin (and probably so for that very reason).

Why would that statement constitute as holocaust denial? He is not denying it, he is praising it.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yep, that would IMO constitute holocaust denial and probably incitement to racial hatred too. What laws does EIRE have on these? I'm not sure Germany would/could prosecute as the organisation indeed seems to be based in Dublin (and probably so for that very reason).

You can say anything you like on it about it as we have no law against it.

They are here as we have a common travel area with UK so they can develop ideas here while they raise and store funds here etc and then proliferate there beliefs around the rest of Europe.

[al Roumi]

Why would that statement constitute as holocaust denial? He is not denying it, he is praising it.

"The last punishment was carried out by Hitler. By means of all the things he did to them – even though they exaggerated this issue – he managed to put them in their place."

Is that denial or diminution? You may be right - but it's hardly particularly supportive of the accepted version of history.

So is Christianity or Paganism.

The expectation should be that religions bend to state rules and laws, and not the other way around.

Even if they are as comprehensive, the difference with Islam is some of its followers (salafists), who want its current form to be just like it was in Muhammad's life-time. This is when the prophet was at once a religious, political and military leader. This means that those Muslims who pine for such "original" Islam would like to see all three strands of society/power lead by a single inidividual (Montesquieu would roll in his grave). Hence the difficulty of secularism...

You can say anything you like on it about it as we have no law against it.

They are here as we have a common travel area with UK so they can develop ideas here while they raise and store funds here etc and then proliferate there beliefs around the rest of Europe.

While you didn't say anything along those lines, I hope this clarifies the double-standard issue a little for others.

[Beskar]

"The last punishment was carried out by Hitler. By means of all the things he did to them – even though they exaggerated this issue – he managed to put them in their place."

Is that denial or diminution? You may be right - but it's hardly particularly supportive of the accepted version of history.

Well, it is exaggerated in context compared to the other groups affected by the holocaust, as in the disabled, socialists, communists, gypies, and the other groups affected by it as well. So in that way, it is. But it is true that the jewish population did face a unique racial problem (other than the disabled, who can't help being disabled) and were just killed willy nilly as scape goats.

[rory_20_uk]

Even if they are as comprehensive, the difference with Islam is some of its followers (salafists), who want its current form to be just like it was in Muhammad's life-time. This is when the prophet was at once a religious, political and military leader. This means that those Muslims who pine for such "original" Islam would like to see all three strands of society/power lead by a single inidividual (Montesquieu would roll in his grave). Hence the difficulty of secularism...

What any branch of nutters wants is not the issue: The 88 club, nor the KKK, nor any other extremist group be they following God or their own hate should force the state to bend to their wants.

If they don't want to adhere then they are deciding to exlude themselves from society and this should be accepted as their choice, not that the system needs to bend over backwards to accomodate them.