Ah, the "Progressive Left"

[gaelic cowboy]

And a silly association it is today. It is well known that lighter shades of hair colour indicate pure Germanic blood, as opposed to the pitch black hair of the Gaels, who are descended from Basques, and in turn Africans, quite removed from the more civilized European races.

That should read pre Gaelic or Celtic basically pre Indo-European there Rhy at least for UK and Ireland it should at the latest early bronze age I would say.

[Rhyfelwyr]

That should read pre Gaelic or Celtic basically pre Indo-European there Rhy at least for UK and Ireland it should at the latest early bronze age I would say.

Pre-Gaelic? But the jet black hair comes from the whole Mil of Spain (northern Spain eg Basque country) thing, not the earlier inhabitants.

Nahhhhh, Pitch Black is the other Celts; like me.

Not the Jonny-come-latelies like you.

But you live in Cornwall... they are a P-Celtic people, same as Scottish Picts and Ulster Cruithin, and it is well known that their characteristics are the lighter hair and larger build as described by Tacitus.

It is just common sense that the Goidils/Gaels should have darker hair, since they come from the same Q-Celtic language group as the Celtiberians.

[gaelic cowboy]

Pre-Gaelic? But the jet black hair comes from the whole Mil of Spain (northern Spain eg Basque country) thing, not the earlier inhabitants.

Those people from Mil or Spain of Celt Iberian or wahtever you wish to call it were not Gaelic the Gaels are an Indo-European race and hence of lighter hair and skin tone same as the Germanic and Nordic races.

The darker shades of both hair and skin tone of which maybe 70 or 80 percent of the genetic makeup still exits not just in Ireland and the Basque region but in the UK at large is from basically a pre Indo-European culture.

These people would have been the first people around here and they or there descendents bulit things like Stonehenge and Newgrange by the time the Celts arrived in Ireland the passage tomb in Newgrange was probably covered over with soil by the passage of time.

Of course the Gaels had black hair as well as blond and red but then I not arguing against that all I am saying is that the legacy of hair colour which is determined by genes was laid down before the Celts.

[gaelic cowboy]

gah double post

[Rhyfelwyr]

These people would have been the first people around here and they or there descendents bulit things like Stonehenge and Newgrange by the time the Celts arrived in Ireland the passage tomb in Newgrange was probably covered over with soil by the passage of time.

Of course the Gaels had black hair as well as blond and red but then I not arguing against that all I am saying is that the legacy of hair colour which is determined by genes was laid down before the Celts.

Yeah we can both agree there were people around long before the first documented migrations took place, the question is how far the genetic influence of these groups...

Those people from Mil or Spain of Celt Iberian or wahtever you wish to call it were not Gaelic the Gaels are an Indo-European race and hence of lighter hair and skin tone same as the Germanic and Nordic races.

The darker shades of both hair and skin tone of which maybe 70 or 80 percent of the genetic makeup still exits not just in Ireland and the Basque region but in the UK at large is from basically a pre Indo-European culture.

The term 'Gael' is usually applied to all the inhabitants of Ireland, whether of pre Indo-European, Celtiberian, Belgic, Norse, whatever roots. But the dominant group that have historically charactarised the Gaels (and something promoted by Irish nationalists to distinguish themselves from the rest of the British Isles) is the idea that all Irish are descended from Mil of Spain, and share Basque heritage (further promoted because of ideologies links between Irish republicans and Basque nationalists), and in turn African heritage, making them completely distinct from the Germanic British people.

It is I believe even a matter of some controversy as to whether the Gaels should be considered a Celtic people at all, separating them from the P-Celtic Britons/Picts/Cruithin etc entirely.

Hmm... this has actually turned into a serious discussion... I was just making silly patriotic references at first, I was talking more about the significance of what common perceptions/myths say about national identity, as opposed to the reality of the science behind it.

Certainly, Ireland seems to be noticably further away from the Germanic sphere of infleunce on the genetic map than the UK as a whole:



Interestingly, despite the myth of Scotland as part of a 'Celtic fringe' used by modern day Scottish nationalists to make Scotland distinct from England, it would appear Scotland is even more Germanic than the UK as a whole. This actually supports all that funny 18th century rhetoric where Scottish unionists combined their unionism with a sort of Scottish patriotism (NOT nationalism), in arguing they were the more 'pure' British than the English were.

Kind of reminds me how the British Isrealists used to have this idea of Scotland and England being one people, like the two kingdoms of Israel and Judah, destined to be reunited as God's chosen people. Heh, given Scotland's stricter Protestantism and 'purer' Germanic heritage, you could say Scotland is like Judah, smaller, more backward and nationalist and truer to God than it's more cosmopolitan twin kingdom to the north. And so England is like the northern kingdom of Israel/Ephraim, 'polluted' with Gentile blood and practices (seen by it's less pure Germanic heritage and loosness in religion). To take it even further, you could note that the Irish immigration was similar to the Edomites pouring into Judah in what came Idumea. But unlike Israel/England that was integrated with these foreign peoples, Judah/Scotland fought with them constantly on order to remain true to God.

But I'm just having some fun here, don't take this seriously.

National identity is a weird and wonderful business isn't it...

[gaelic cowboy]

The genetic map you show there actually proves my point just cos we define ourselves Celtic does not mean we are genetically Celtic. Most academic stuff I ever read or heard on telly posits the earlier genes survived and the local people merged or converted to a small more advanced iron working culture.

My guess but I cannot obviously prove it would be that iron gave the newer people an economic advantage as it would be easier to find and maintain than bronze which is expensive stuff due to it being an alloy or copper and tin.

Shortage of the alloys for bronze would have put pressure on there culture the more plentiful iron and the invention of charcoal allowed the more difficult casting of iron to become easier.

Don't worry I know you don't take it seriously I just noted it because other people read these forums and I am fascinated by all this stuff I especially love the economic and engineering side of history as they tend to piggyback each other.