Ah, the "Progressive Left"

[The Stranger]

the comment wasnt racist because it wasnt universal. had she said all gingers are rodents she was being racist, now she was just being stupid and possibly insulting. (i say possibly because an insult insnt an insult untill someone is insulted, funny enough, usually people who arent being "insulted" are more instulted by an insult than those who are targeted by the insult...)

[Sasaki Kojiro]

A
And having said that, how someone can read politics into the insults people fling at people they despise is, quite frankly, beyond me. I can happily put extreme pressure on the "Fag"-part of Dag Eilev FAGermo's name because I hate him more than words can describe, but that has absolutely NOTHING to do with my stance on homosexuals, and I don't see why anyone would think that it has.

It's pretty common sense

Abstract Biased language related to sexual orientation is
used frequently among students and is related to prominent
social concerns such as bullying. Prejudice toward gay,
lesbian, bisexual, and transgender individuals also has been
examined among adolescents, but separately from these
behaviors. This study tested whether biased language use
was associated with bullying and dominance irrespective of
sexual prejudice or if sexual prejudice moderated these
associations among 290 high school students (50% female;
56% White). Sexual prejudice was associated with biased
language use among boys only. Biased language was
associated with bullying regardless of levels of sexual
prejudice for boys. However, this association was depen-
dent on sexual prejudice for girls. For dominance behavior,
its association with biased language was moderated by
sexual prejudice for boys, but not girls. However, girls’
engagement in all behaviors was significantly less than
boys. These results indicate nuanced ways in which mul-
tiple factors contribute to the use of sexual orientation
biased language. Also, they underscore the need to address
biased language and prejudice as part of anti-bullying
programs.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Not sure whether I should be happy that this thread has developed as it has despite a "Godwin" in the OP, or give it up as a lost effort because it is so spotty despite Banquo's gentle prodding.

I'll leave it open for now, but please note that this thread is teetering on the verge of oblivion.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Gingers aren't a race.

the comment wasnt racist because it wasnt universal. had she said all gingers are rodents she was being racist, now she was just being stupid and possibly insulting. (i say possibly because an insult insnt an insult untill someone is insulted, funny enough, usually people who arent being "insulted" are more instulted by an insult than those who are targeted by the insult...)

I dissagree here. Being ginger in the UK is associated with being Gaelic, and all the oppression (real or imagined) that entails. Danny Alexander is a Scot, his red hair is a racial marker, unless you think racism can only be between people of radically different skin tones.

[The Stranger]

wait, i might have made a mistake in my phrasing. the comment wasnt discriminating. and while it is racist in the sense that it indeed implies racial markers and differences (in which way making the distinction between that "white" man and that "black" man is also racist) it isnt racist in the way that tributes a certain attribute to a group (eg all negroes are lazy or all gingers are rodents)

[InsaneApache]

I think you're missing the point. The person who made the comment was, until 6 months ago, the minisiter for equalities.

[The Stranger]

im not missing the point. she could be god for all i care... whoever uttered the phrase is something different than the type of phrase uttered and has nothing to do with each other.

ofcourse this makes her behaviour hypocrite, or dubious to say the least but it doesnt make the comment discriminating.

the question that needs to be answered is: did she call him a rodent because he is ginger (discriminating because it insinuates that when someone is a ginger, he is a rodent) or did she call him a "ginger rodent" because she thinks he is a rodent who just happens to be a ginger one (insulting, possibly rascist, but not discriminating)

i understand though that as a former minister of equalities such a remark which will put u in this spot isnt a very smart one to make, you have to be wilders to make such remarks and get away with it.

[InsaneApache]

Is'n't everything discriminating?

[The Stranger]

Is'n't everything discriminating?

i dont know what ur definition of discriminating is but it isnt the same as distingushing... u can distinguish a person on persenal attributes as well as universal attributes, you cannot discriminate a person on personal attributes...

but i might get mixed up in the language here

all gingers are rodents is discriminating

he is a rodent is not discriminating

all mexicans are lazy is discriminating

he is lazy isnt

[Rhyfelwyr]

Ah yes, I forgot; right-wingers prefer to just praise the ones who hold the signs, being too cowardly to say the actual words themselves....

Because that's so much better.

BBBBBBBBUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT...

Nah, I ain't biting.

I dissagree here. Being ginger in the UK is associated with being Gaelic, and all the oppression (real or imagined) that entails. Danny Alexander is a Scot, his red hair is a racial marker, unless you think racism can only be between people of radically different skin tones.

And a silly association it is today. It is well known that lighter shades of hair colour indicate pure Germanic blood, as opposed to the pitch black hair of the Gaels, who are descended from Basques, and in turn Africans, quite removed from the more civilized European races.

[gaelic cowboy]

And a silly association it is today. It is well known that lighter shades of hair colour indicate pure Germanic blood, as opposed to the pitch black hair of the Gaels, who are descended from Basques, and in turn Africans, quite removed from the more civilized European races.

That should read pre Gaelic or Celtic basically pre Indo-European there Rhy at least for UK and Ireland it should at the latest early bronze age I would say.

[HoreTore]

I think you're missing the point. The person who made the comment was, until 6 months ago, the minisiter for equalities.

....And that means she can't be angry at someone and insult them?

I think you're confusing minister for equalities with angels....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And a silly association it is today. It is well known that lighter shades of hair colour indicate pure Germanic blood, as opposed to the pitch black hair of the Gaels, who are descended from Basques, and in turn Africans, quite removed from the more civilized European races.

Nahhhhh, Pitch Black is the other Celts; like me.

Not the Jonny-come-latelies like you.

[Rhyfelwyr]

That should read pre Gaelic or Celtic basically pre Indo-European there Rhy at least for UK and Ireland it should at the latest early bronze age I would say.

Pre-Gaelic? But the jet black hair comes from the whole Mil of Spain (northern Spain eg Basque country) thing, not the earlier inhabitants.

Nahhhhh, Pitch Black is the other Celts; like me.

Not the Jonny-come-latelies like you.

But you live in Cornwall... they are a P-Celtic people, same as Scottish Picts and Ulster Cruithin, and it is well known that their characteristics are the lighter hair and larger build as described by Tacitus.

It is just common sense that the Goidils/Gaels should have darker hair, since they come from the same Q-Celtic language group as the Celtiberians.

[gaelic cowboy]

Pre-Gaelic? But the jet black hair comes from the whole Mil of Spain (northern Spain eg Basque country) thing, not the earlier inhabitants.

Those people from Mil or Spain of Celt Iberian or wahtever you wish to call it were not Gaelic the Gaels are an Indo-European race and hence of lighter hair and skin tone same as the Germanic and Nordic races.

The darker shades of both hair and skin tone of which maybe 70 or 80 percent of the genetic makeup still exits not just in Ireland and the Basque region but in the UK at large is from basically a pre Indo-European culture.

These people would have been the first people around here and they or there descendents bulit things like Stonehenge and Newgrange by the time the Celts arrived in Ireland the passage tomb in Newgrange was probably covered over with soil by the passage of time.

Of course the Gaels had black hair as well as blond and red but then I not arguing against that all I am saying is that the legacy of hair colour which is determined by genes was laid down before the Celts.

[gaelic cowboy]

gah double post

[Rhyfelwyr]

These people would have been the first people around here and they or there descendents bulit things like Stonehenge and Newgrange by the time the Celts arrived in Ireland the passage tomb in Newgrange was probably covered over with soil by the passage of time.

Of course the Gaels had black hair as well as blond and red but then I not arguing against that all I am saying is that the legacy of hair colour which is determined by genes was laid down before the Celts.

Yeah we can both agree there were people around long before the first documented migrations took place, the question is how far the genetic influence of these groups...

Those people from Mil or Spain of Celt Iberian or wahtever you wish to call it were not Gaelic the Gaels are an Indo-European race and hence of lighter hair and skin tone same as the Germanic and Nordic races.

The darker shades of both hair and skin tone of which maybe 70 or 80 percent of the genetic makeup still exits not just in Ireland and the Basque region but in the UK at large is from basically a pre Indo-European culture.

The term 'Gael' is usually applied to all the inhabitants of Ireland, whether of pre Indo-European, Celtiberian, Belgic, Norse, whatever roots. But the dominant group that have historically charactarised the Gaels (and something promoted by Irish nationalists to distinguish themselves from the rest of the British Isles) is the idea that all Irish are descended from Mil of Spain, and share Basque heritage (further promoted because of ideologies links between Irish republicans and Basque nationalists), and in turn African heritage, making them completely distinct from the Germanic British people.

It is I believe even a matter of some controversy as to whether the Gaels should be considered a Celtic people at all, separating them from the P-Celtic Britons/Picts/Cruithin etc entirely.

Hmm... this has actually turned into a serious discussion... I was just making silly patriotic references at first, I was talking more about the significance of what common perceptions/myths say about national identity, as opposed to the reality of the science behind it.

Certainly, Ireland seems to be noticably further away from the Germanic sphere of infleunce on the genetic map than the UK as a whole:



Interestingly, despite the myth of Scotland as part of a 'Celtic fringe' used by modern day Scottish nationalists to make Scotland distinct from England, it would appear Scotland is even more Germanic than the UK as a whole. This actually supports all that funny 18th century rhetoric where Scottish unionists combined their unionism with a sort of Scottish patriotism (NOT nationalism), in arguing they were the more 'pure' British than the English were.

Kind of reminds me how the British Isrealists used to have this idea of Scotland and England being one people, like the two kingdoms of Israel and Judah, destined to be reunited as God's chosen people. Heh, given Scotland's stricter Protestantism and 'purer' Germanic heritage, you could say Scotland is like Judah, smaller, more backward and nationalist and truer to God than it's more cosmopolitan twin kingdom to the north. And so England is like the northern kingdom of Israel/Ephraim, 'polluted' with Gentile blood and practices (seen by it's less pure Germanic heritage and loosness in religion). To take it even further, you could note that the Irish immigration was similar to the Edomites pouring into Judah in what came Idumea. But unlike Israel/England that was integrated with these foreign peoples, Judah/Scotland fought with them constantly on order to remain true to God.

But I'm just having some fun here, don't take this seriously.

National identity is a weird and wonderful business isn't it...

[gaelic cowboy]

The genetic map you show there actually proves my point just cos we define ourselves Celtic does not mean we are genetically Celtic. Most academic stuff I ever read or heard on telly posits the earlier genes survived and the local people merged or converted to a small more advanced iron working culture.

My guess but I cannot obviously prove it would be that iron gave the newer people an economic advantage as it would be easier to find and maintain than bronze which is expensive stuff due to it being an alloy or copper and tin.

Shortage of the alloys for bronze would have put pressure on there culture the more plentiful iron and the invention of charcoal allowed the more difficult casting of iron to become easier.

Don't worry I know you don't take it seriously I just noted it because other people read these forums and I am fascinated by all this stuff I especially love the economic and engineering side of history as they tend to piggyback each other.

[Louis VI the Fat]

And a silly association it is today. It is well known that lighter shades of hair colour indicate pure Germanic blood, as opposed to the pitch black hair of the Gaels, who are descended from Basques, and in turn Africans, quite removed from the more civilized European races.

The Celts are not descendants of Basque-related peoples. The Celts overthrew them.

There is something funny about this entire history: the original inhabitants are Basque-related 'pre-Celtic' peoples, who were overrun by Celts, who were themselves conquered by and mixed with Romans, who were subsequently overran by Germanic tribes, who settled in different numbers in different areas.

The fun is, that is the basic etno-historical story of both France and of the isle of Britain. Yet whereas the British attribute fair skin to the Germanic component, in France it is the Celtic component that is associated with blue eyes, while the Germanic component is downplayed a bit.
A nationalist Frenchman thinks himself a Celtic 'Gaul', the way a nationalist Englishman thinks himself a Germanic 'Anglo-Saxon'.

[gaelic cowboy]

The Celts are not descendants of Basque-related peoples. The Celts overthrew them.

overthrew is a strong word Louis I would say they were submerged into a newer culture after they earlier people had effectively changed sides.

Also I have a bug bear about this "They came from Spain thing" the people from the Basque region are just the only people left who match us closely that doe not mean that is where the Celts in Ireland came from.

Basically an aristocratic Celtic layer was deposited on top of an earlier culture the nature of kinship and marriage in the Celtic world meant they effectively had a proto-caste system so the earlier genetic legacy survived.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The genetic map you show there actually proves my point just cos we define ourselves Celtic does not mean we are genetically Celtic.

But doesn't the map show Ireland to be further from the Germans/Dutch etc, with the UK being in between? Wouldn't that make Ireland more Celtic?

Most academic stuff I ever read or heard on telly posits the earlier genes survived and the local people merged or converted to a small more advanced iron working culture.

My guess but I cannot obviously prove it would be that iron gave the newer people an economic advantage as it would be easier to find and maintain than bronze which is expensive stuff due to it being an alloy or copper and tin.

Shortage of the alloys for bronze would have put pressure on there culture the more plentiful iron and the invention of charcoal allowed the more difficult casting of iron to become easier.

Don't worry I know you don't take it seriously I just noted it because other people read these forums and I am fascinated by all this stuff I especially love the economic and engineering side of history as they tend to piggyback each other.

Aye, I think there is a growing trend amongst archeologists/historians etc in realising that the supposed mass migrations that led to the mass displacement of the native people were in fact nothing like that - instead, the groups seem to have merged. Or as it turns out, it is now even more likely that there was very little migration at all, but instead there was a takeover at the elite level, which allowed the newcomers to impose their culture without reshaping the genetic pool.

I was taught last year by a professor who is poineering these ideas in regards to the kingdom of Dal Riata. Traditionally it had been thought that the Irish tribes replaced the native P-Celtic peoples (a mix of Pict and Brythonic around the relevant area of Scotland), however now it seems that all that happened was an Irish dynasty took over the leadership of the tribes, and that even then the cultural similarities were in fact the result of a much longer process of shared development between the peoples of Ireland and western Scotland (due to the fact we tend to see the sea as a divide nowadays, when in fact that was the best way to travel in those days given the inland geography).

So I think in the future we will see a lot of similar challenges to supposed mass migrations... whether of Gaels to Scotland, Celtiberians to Ireland, Saxons to England etc...

The Celts are not descendants of Basque-related peoples. The Celts overthrew them.

Maybe there is some confusion here over whether a Goidil constitutes a Celt, but the common myth was that the Goidils that supposedly came over with Mil of Spain are those Basque people from Celtiberia with what some consider to be a Celtic culture. For Irish nationalists, the idea was that they were all descended from Mil of Spain, and that the earlier inhabitants were insignificant.

Earlier peoples like the Fir Bolg, which some have claimed had the characteristics of jet black hair etc, are now thought to be descended from the Belgae.

[Strike For The South]

Jesus in a handbasket does it really matter?

[gaelic cowboy]

Jesus in a handbasket does it really matter?

No it does not matter a bit in the slightest Strike hence most Irish people have not a clue of any of this Celtic/pre-Celtic lark at all at all.

However the problem is the loons run the agenda here in terms of race and culture and people are actually killed over it.

[Strike For The South]

No it does not matter a bit in the slightest Strike hence most Irish people have not a clue of any of this Celtic/pre-Celtic lark at all at all.

However the problem is the loons run the agenda here in terms of race and culture and people are actually killed over it.

All I know is the Irish would sooner drink the day away than put in honest hard labor.

Oh and they like potatoes.

[gaelic cowboy]

All I know is the Irish would sooner drink the day away than put in honest hard labor.

Oh and they like potatoes.

That is because drinking is serious business here Strike don't you know that well have none of yer oul American frat boy antics here thank you very much.

[Fragony]

wait, i might have made a mistake in my phrasing. the comment wasnt discriminating. and while it is racist in the sense that it indeed implies racial markers and differences (in which way making the distinction between that "white" man and that "black" man is also racist) it isnt racist in the way that tributes a certain attribute to a group (eg all negroes are lazy or all gingers are rodents)

But if a comment like that was made in association with a black men's curly hear they would squeeze out every drop of demonising potential. Nobody cares about the actual insult except youtube star Ginger Kid perhaps. It's the hypocrisy that's annoying.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Jesus in a handbasket does it really matter?

The historical legends of the ethnic origins of small peoples on the edge of Europe is the single most significant, pressing, and relevant issue in the world today.

[The Stranger]

But if a comment like that was made in association with a black men's curly hear they would squeeze out every drop of demonising potential. Nobody cares about the actual insult except youtube star Ginger Kid perhaps. It's the hypocrisy that's annoying.

i never said it wasnt hypocrite... i was just referring that the label discriminating was wrong. i think i have made that clear enough now :P