What should the voting age be?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

No they don't, the wording itself contradicts you. The Constitutional amendment itself says that this is a right only to be protected to those above a certain age, hence those below the age do not have such right because it is not protected. It's like saying the right to free speech to anyone above 25. Are you really going to say that the 23 year old socialist protester who gets arrested for "improper ideas" still has the same rights as the 50 year old spouting the same thing who has a free pass, since all that young kid had to do was wait 2 before before opening his mouth against the government?

But the right to vote requires you being a certain age, level of citizenship etc while the right to free speech does not. There's no unjust inequality in having an age limit for voting and I don't think you think there is, so this is kind of a digression...

Fully interacting with society is the point we give people the vote because it is the point where they are given the opportunity to truly understand the effects of laws and bills and ideologies in terms of how it will effect themselves and everyone around them. A 14 year old has little understanding of the extent that government plays in his life. "Don't we want people to vote well, with good reasons?" Sure, but like I said that is subjective. What determines voting well? Being informed? Knowing broadly what party suits your ideology? Voting based on a single issue that you hold dear to your personality/ideology? There is no real answer to any of those questions unless you start getting into totalitarian territory.

How is it subjective? Do you mean hard to pin down? The age limit issue doesn't try and pin it down. It's very broad-it's not like they are being tested. This is a key point--the voting age is a "this is better" not a "this is calculated optimal".

Also I don't know why you complain that "being informed" is subjective but not that "truly understanding the effects of laws and bills" is not.

Exactly, which is why I ask for the voting age to as low as possible without having become extremely absurd like having 5 year olds vote. It's for the most part very arbitrary. Again, you use terms like "most of them have improved" how so? How do you define improve? They switched their opinion once during this period? Their reasoning has become more defined? No ones reasoning is perfect and some people gain a greater understanding of the world without having their opinion change one bit. Using that argument you would have to say, well then lets give it to them at 30 then because they will have learned more then. No wait, 45 because they will be even more learned by then. No wait, lets just have the oldest person decide for us since he should have learned more then anyone else. The idea that more time=better results on an individual level is just completely flawed and cannot be used without having drastic logical consequences. That is unless you put some arbitrary limit where people beyond a certain age should be "knowledgeable" enough from their years to be able to vote, but we are back to my original statement which is that such an arbitrary limit is useless and should be suppressed as much as possible to allow as many people as possible without going over board.

Ok, you said 5 year olds voting would be absurd. Now point all of your rhetoric back at yourself

25 year olds as a whole are more mature and educated than 18 year olds, agree or disagree? They are more likely to have lived on their own, had a full time job, paid serious taxes, thought about or started a career, and have 7 more years of exposure to the world and to political events. I mean, why have college at all if it doesn't improve anything?

You try to keep extending the age upwards in your bizarre argument, but your basically denying that people mature from adolescence into adulthood when you do that.

Well that maybe all true, but it doesn't have any bearing on what we should do in terms of letting people vote. Like I said, what society thinks doesn't matter. Society is full of people who are not competent enough to vote properly so why are these people deciding on who else should be able to vote?

Who said what society thinks is what matters? Whether it's true or not is what matters. Do you think it isn't?

Supposition. Perhaps they started watching the Fox News 5 years earlier and didn't have the common sense to have any skepticism when people on TV start telling them that a certain group of people are ruining the country.

Why don't you think habits started at an early age have a tendency to last?

No, we set the limit where we think people should be able to have rights due to society having a high involvement in their lives already. We moved the limit from 21 to 18 because of the Vietnam War. 18 years olds were deemed sufficiently involved in society to be able to be drafted and thrown off into a war for the country, so the country decided that therefore they should have all the rights bestowed upon them within this society, including voting.

And you chewed me out over "what society thinks doesn't matter" when I never even relied on it...

18 year olds being drafted is not an argument for the voting age, because one could just as well say that 18 year olds shouldn't be drafted.

Like I said, I think it is when they have become integrated into society to the point that laws, government and decisions begin to have a clear impact on their lives. We can measure this more objectively by the average or usual number of legal contracts on an individual such age bracket has in society. If we were to take a look at that we would probably see a huge spike on the number of contracts per person on average around 15 or 16 which is when kids usually start to drive and get jobs. Therefore, this seems to me to be the most logical point to have their voting rights bestowed upon them. We are not saying anything to them other then that you have this responsibility on your shoulders, this is the extent we will prepare you for this responsibility, the rest is all on your own personal responsibility.

Voting is where you make thoughtful reasoned educated decision about what's best for the country and the people. Why are you eager to make voting a bare minimum kind of thing? The point where the government has an effect on their lives actually starts with mandatory schooling and various other things, but that's beside the point. It having an effect on their lives is the point where they will presumably want to vote. But why give them the right to vote just because they want to?

I'll make a comparison to jury duty. Would you want a 16 year old voting on whether to convict you of murder in a complex trial if you were innocent? Then why do you want him voting in the election?

[a completely inoffensive name]

But the right to vote requires you being a certain age, level of citizenship etc while the right to free speech does not. There's no unjust inequality in having an age limit for voting and I don't think you think there is, so this is kind of a digression...

I actually do think there is a slight inequality in having an age limit for voting. Because like I said, the limit is arbitrary and based on false premises of what it takes for someone to be "ready" to vote. The only reason there is an age limit imo is because throughout history older people have always looked down upon the youth and falsely thought that this coming generation will be the worst ever seen on this Earth ever. ("kids these days.") Even wise men like Socrates looked down upon the youth as if they were a plague upon civilization and yet I seem to recall that Greek civilization continued after Socrates's generation died out.

How is it subjective? Do you mean hard to pin down? The age limit issue doesn't try and pin it down. It's very broad-it's not like they are being tested. This is a key point--the voting age is a "this is better" not a "this is calculated optimal".

Also I don't know why you complain that "being informed" is subjective but not that "truly understanding the effects of laws and bills" is not.

I disagree that it is hard to pin down. Unless you can give me an objective measure on what it means for an opinion to be "well" and have "good reasons". If there is no standard on what makes a reason good and what makes a reason bad, then it is subjective. The part I bold contradicts your statement you just made no? It's not subjective and yet when it comes down to it, the limit is all based on what we "think" is better according to our prejudices and feelings. So again, this is why I want this "limit" to be as inconsequential to the citizens life as much as possible by lowering it to the point where they begin to fully enter society and not because "we think it is best" that it is 18 and not 19 or 17 or whatever.

As for your last sentence there, read what I said again, "the point where they are given the opportunity to truly understand the effects of laws and bills and ideologies" the bold part is the part you must have skipped over. I'm not saying when they actually understand, I'm saying when they enter society and have the chance to either understand or go about their merry way ignorant of the world around them (which many people do). When is this opportunity given? Well now we have a discussion that can have at least some objectivity in it. Is it when the 16 year old has to actually interact with the government by getting a drivers license or is it when like Seamus said the person has the ability to own private property starting at age 18? Let's see like I said, how often the average person deals with the government and society on a day to day basis for each age group (using a measure such as the number of typical contracts one can sign themselves to [and usually do]). I have a feeling that could shed some light on the subject and give a more reasonable conclusion then the masses thinking (aka feeling) what they feel the limit should be. That in itself is what I said before a tyranny of the majority.

Ok, you said 5 year olds voting would be absurd. Now point all of your rhetoric back at yourself

25 year olds as a whole are more mature and educated than 18 year olds, agree or disagree? They are more likely to have lived on their own, had a full time job, paid serious taxes, thought about or started a career, and have 7 more years of exposure to the world and to political events. I mean, why have college at all if it doesn't improve anything?

You try to keep extending the age upwards in your bizarre argument, but your basically denying that people mature from adolescence into adulthood when you do that.

I tried not to make definitive statements about the limit that it should completely scrapped. I said it was arbitrary for the most part not that it has no potential. I have been suggesting how to make the limit better not to throw it out. Here is me quoting me with the important part highlighted, "but we are back to my original statement which is that such an arbitrary limit is useless and should be suppressed as much as possible to allow as many people as possible without going over board." The way we use the limit today is practically pointless because it doesn't take into account anything but what we "think" the limit should be which is essentially today's generation determining for future generations when they can vote which in my mind is tyranny. If we can make a more objective approach on when a person is involved in society to the point that he/she should make decisions about it, then the limit has some backing to it. Otherwise its just people giving their opinions on whether or not they want their neighbors children the right to vote.

EDIT: Forgot this:
As for 25 years as a whole being more mature...what makes one more mature? We are talking about political responsibility not day to day behavior. Are they paying house and car payments and not acting like ******** as much? Probably, but what does that have to do with how they vote or think when it comes to politics? 18 year old: "I want Obama because he will make everything better and help me with my life with benefits and such for poor students!" 25 year old: "I now have a house and car so I don't want to pay any more money to government for others to be helped out! I have mine and I want government out of my life now!" I really don't see the "difference" in maturity between those two statements.

My bizarre argument is me taking the logic that higher age=more wisdom to its extreme. I'm not trying to deny that people don't mature in that they function more properly within society as a person, but I certainly am denying the idea that they are maturing in their ideological and political views. Many learn that the world is not what they expect it to be and change their views accordingly, many more it seems begin to react to the reality in front of them by only adhering to what they feel it "should" be more vehemently. I can give examples, but I am really getting sick of seeing my walls of text.

Who said what society thinks is what matters? Whether it's true or not is what matters. Do you think it isn't?

I apologize, I thought you were making an argument that since today people don't enter the work force generally until later in life then 200 years ago we should factor that in. Also, I misused a word. I said doesn't when I really wanted to say "shouldn't".

Why don't you think habits started at an early age have a tendency to last?

Why don't you think that maybe their is some nuance to the world and that some smart people start becoming dumb and some dumb people start becoming smarter? From what you are saying, its as if we have the ability to separate the ignorant and dumb from the educated and responsible.

And you chewed me out over "what society thinks doesn't matter" when I never even relied on it...

18 year olds being drafted is not an argument for the voting age, because one could just as well say that 18 year olds shouldn't be drafted.

Like I said before, I made a mistake, take my earlier statement and swap out "doesn't" with shouldn't. Right now the limit is arbitrary because it's just what society "thinks" is right, when the limit shouldn't be based on what they "think" but a more objective manner. That is my sentiment here.

Voting is where you make thoughtful reasoned educated decision about what's best for the country and the people. Why are you eager to make voting a bare minimum kind of thing? The point where the government has an effect on their lives actually starts with mandatory schooling and various other things, but that's beside the point. It having an effect on their lives is the point where they will presumably want to vote. But why give them the right to vote just because they want to?

I'll make a comparison to jury duty. Would you want a 16 year old voting on whether to convict you of murder in a complex trial if you were innocent? Then why do you want him voting in the election?

I am making it a bare minimum kind of thing because your statement of what voting is and the reality of what voting is are completely different from each other. Most people probably don't make thoughtful or reasoned or educated decisions. Unless somehow the 65 year old calling Obama is a socialist has reeeeeeally good evidence that he is a socialist, his whole point of voting Republican is less then thoughtful or educated. Technically government has a role in their lives from the beginning, schooling is passive involvement like food and drug laws and stuff it's always there in the background anyway. I believe I said for when the government involvement spikes to an active (not passive) level comparative to the average citizen, usually a person has little active government involvement until 15-18. This is when instead of being a background force, a person has to actively interact with government to get a drivers license, or pay their taxes or to own land. I apologize if I didn't make that clear the first time. But yes, that is beside the point for now.

Why give them the right just because they want to? Precisely because they want to. This is a democratic republic, but more important this is a participatory democratic republic where you are not mandated to vote. If someone wants to contribute, it should be their right to do so. The only thing holding back those under 18 that want to speak out and contribute to the political process by voting is the idea that being older=being wiser and that statement is just completely false. Would I want a 16 year old voting on whether to convict me of murder if I was innocent? Probably not, but then again I'm sure an African-American would not want a bigot voting on whether to convict him for murder either. And yet, we don't let the African-American get to decide when the bigots should have voting rights.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Our replies are growing exponentially

It has reaaally been my experience that people get a lot smarter between 18 and mid twenties. You can say it's just completely false if you want. But then I ask why you think college education is important outside of a resume and why you don't want a 16 year old on your jury

Whether there are bad voters who are over 25 is just not the point. It's about whether having a better voting pool is better for everyone, and whether raising the age limit would increase the quality of the voting pool. I think the argument that 25 is better than 18 in the same way that 18 is better than 14 is pretty straightforward when it's accepted that we want good, knowledgeable voters (because they are more likely to elect a good government). I think your sort of undefined moral imperative that as many people should vote as possible is a lot vaguer. If it did lead to a worse government how would you justify that? I'm aware you're arguing that it wouldn't.

Essentially, why do we tell people that they are qualified to understand complicated moral, legal, economic and foreign policy questions 3 years before we tell them they are qualified to drink without killing themselves? Why not the reverse?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Our replies are growing exponentially

It has reaaally been my experience that people get a lot smarter between 18 and mid twenties. You can say it's just completely false if you want. But then I ask why you think college education is important outside of a resume and why you don't want a 16 year old on your jury

Whether there are bad voters who are over 25 is just not the point. It's about whether having a better voting pool is better for everyone, and whether raising the age limit would increase the quality of the voting pool. I think the argument that 25 is better than 18 in the same way that 18 is better than 14 is pretty straightforward when it's accepted that we want good, knowledgeable voters (because they are more likely to elect a good government). I think your sort of undefined moral imperative that as many people should vote as possible is a lot vaguer. If it did lead to a worse government how would you justify that? I'm aware you're arguing that it wouldn't.

Essentially, why do we tell people that they are qualified to understand complicated moral, legal, economic and foreign policy questions 3 years before we tell them they are qualified to drink without killing themselves? Why not the reverse?

Well like I said, earlier what you perceive as them being smarter doesn't translate necessarily into a higher political function capability. I think that people probably are better at recognizing what is in their best interests and vote accordingly, but that is only half the battle and imo only progressing to that point and not the second half of voting for the benefit of all of us is just as self destructive if not more so then a completely ignorant person. Which is why I am saying that in terms of actual political functioning in terms of being better for the country, the benefit of the group is not large enough to justify cutting off other people who havent even gotten to the point of knowing who supports their own goals. College is important for the fact that it is a constant application and absorption of scientific, cultural and social facts and concepts and patterns of thinking for 3-4 years which helps many break the stigma of prejudices, bigotry and falsely based assumptions. For many it does not. For the most part, college is successful in specializing people to increasingly complex roles which are needed for the country to keep up technologically and financially with the rest of the world. The true connection of the facts and the break down your own preconceived notions can only happen on an individual level and for many it never happens sadly.

Well what is stopping you from going one step further and simply saying I think 30 is better for the cut off for the voting pool then 25 like DDave said or even saying you dont really know what life is all about until you hit the half way mark and wanting the limit be at 50. I understand where you are coming from, I'm just uncomfortable with the premise behind it that the longer you live, the better the voter you are. I have explained already why I think it is a false premise and why it is "slippery" so to speak when used imo. If it did lead to a worse government, well then my justification is that we get the government we voted for. One made on stupid decisions. We need to have our society have a sense of government being important, if not one of the most important things in our lives but as it stands right now we have lots of apathy not just in epidemic proportions among the youth but in large sections of all but the most elderly. Our Federal elections don't nearly get the voter turnout they should, when was the last time even 4 out of 5 people who could vote even vote? It seems...sloppy as a society to not better instill a cultural reverence for voting and making political decisions among the youth and instead we just cut them off until they old enough to learn for themselves. That's my feeling on the situation. Personally, since there is such a really low voter turnout from youth, do you think that lowering the voting age would really flood the booth with ignorant voters? Or realistically would those few young politically motivated be the ones voting?

I think that last question is a bit unsatisfactory in this case, simply because the only reason that the drinking age is 21 is due to the federal government bribing the state governments with extra highway funds in exchange for raising their age limit. If the federal government wasn't paying these highways funds a lot of states would probably have an 18 drinking age still. I get your point though and all I can say is what is to stop me from saying if we trust them with complicated questions why not let them drink?

[HoreTore]

A persons cognitive development is such that it makes just as much sense to allow voting at 16 as at 18, so obviously I support voting at 16.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Well like I said, earlier what you perceive as them being smarter doesn't translate necessarily into a higher political function capability. I think that people probably are better at recognizing what is in their best interests and vote accordingly, but that is only half the battle and imo only progressing to that point and not the second half of voting for the benefit of all of us is just as self destructive if not more so then a completely ignorant person. Which is why I am saying that in terms of actual political functioning in terms of being better for the country, the benefit of the group is not large enough to justify cutting off other people who havent even gotten to the point of knowing who supports their own goals. College is important for the fact that it is a constant application and absorption of scientific, cultural and social facts and concepts and patterns of thinking for 3-4 years which helps many break the stigma of prejudices, bigotry and falsely based assumptions. For many it does not. For the most part, college is successful in specializing people to increasingly complex roles which are needed for the country to keep up technologically and financially with the rest of the world. The true connection of the facts and the break down your own preconceived notions can only happen on an individual level and for many it never happens sadly.

But I think you nailed a big part of it here. The 3-4 years in which people move beyond their upbringing and their parents unfounded beliefs. Having a better conception of the limitations of their knowledge rather than the brash confidence of mirroring their parents politics.

Well what is stopping you from going one step further and simply saying I think 30 is better for the cut off for the voting pool then 25 like DDave said or even saying you dont really know what life is all about until you hit the half way mark and wanting the limit be at 50. I understand where you are coming from, I'm just uncomfortable with the premise behind it that the longer you live, the better the voter you are. I have explained already why I think it is a false premise and why it is "slippery" so to speak when used imo.

But for the slope to be slippery there has to be reason to think that there is a significant difference between 25 and 30. But what is it? I don't see one.

If it did lead to a worse government, well then my justification is that we get the government we voted for. One made on stupid decisions. We need to have our society have a sense of government being important, if not one of the most important things in our lives but as it stands right now we have lots of apathy not just in epidemic proportions among the youth but in large sections of all but the most elderly. Our Federal elections don't nearly get the voter turnout they should, when was the last time even 4 out of 5 people who could vote even vote? It seems...sloppy as a society to not better instill a cultural reverence for voting and making political decisions among the youth and instead we just cut them off until they old enough to learn for themselves. That's my feeling on the situation. Personally, since there is such a really low voter turnout from youth, do you think that lowering the voting age would really flood the booth with ignorant voters? Or realistically would those few young politically motivated be the ones voting?

We should not have a cultural reverence for voting and making political decisions. We should have a cultural reverence for being educated.

I think that last question is a bit unsatisfactory in this case, simply because the only reason that the drinking age is 21 is due to the federal government bribing the state governments with extra highway funds in exchange for raising their age limit. If the federal government wasn't paying these highways funds a lot of states would probably have an 18 drinking age still. I get your point though and all I can say is what is to stop me from saying if we trust them with complicated questions why not let them drink?

Well, I was thinking about the message sent. It seems kind of pervasive...all those "just get out there and vote!" campaigns, those "quick summaries of the issues" pamphlets, the "list of who to vote for" sent by the party. That's all there is to it, they are trying to say. I feel like people are better off if they have the tools to analyze stuff before they dive in and affiliate themselves with a party.

[a completely inoffensive name]

But I think you nailed a big part of it here. The 3-4 years in which people move beyond their upbringing and their parents unfounded beliefs. Having a better conception of the limitations of their knowledge rather than the brash confidence of mirroring their parents politics.

It's a mixed bag on what exactly the majority walk away with from college. Many do not have their ideas changed, they simply continue to believe their parents religious doctrine and go into business and bypass any science altogether for example. Many walk away meeting lots of people and gaining a better understanding of people from different backgrounds but many do not. Those that even do have that interaction continue to be ignorant when it comes to non social issues like the economy or "moral" issues like stem cell research where any knowledge of the actual science clears up a lot of the "controversy" automatically. Many people simply don't process but instead regurgitate onto the test which does nothing. A lot of people simply don't go to college either. College does make a noticeable improvement but if you are basing that the age limit should be right where people come out of college I fear that you are banking too much on an institution to be the savior of the country, turning out educated voters when in reality it all comes down to an individual level.

But for the slope to be slippery there has to be reason to think that there is a significant difference between 25 and 30. But what is it? I don't see one.

You could argue that between 25 and 30 is when a lot of people start having kids. Having kids can greatly change your view on a great many things. Would you agree that a 30 (or 35) year old father has a lot more experience and wisdom to bring then a 25 year old spouse or single person since he has children and the experiences that they bring? A lot of preconceptions can be challenged when it conflicts with your desire to make your child safe or entertained or etc...

We should not have a cultural reverence for voting and making political decisions. We should have a cultural reverence for being educated.

I absolutely agree. I should have made that clear in my earlier post. But try breaking America's anti-intellectualism that's been here since the beginning.

Well, I was thinking about the message sent. It seems kind of pervasive...all those "just get out there and vote!" campaigns, those "quick summaries of the issues" pamphlets, the "list of who to vote for" sent by the party. That's all there is to it, they are trying to say. I feel like people are better off if they have the tools to analyze stuff before they dive in and affiliate themselves with a party.

Oh I absolutely agree with this as well. I dislike these college people coming to my dorm getting people to blindly register to vote when they have no clue about any issues. However, to use an overused expression, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Give the tools to an apathetic college kid and those tools will gather dust.

[Ronin]

whatever the age is it should always be the same age as the minimum age to volunter or be draffed into the military forces of each country.
if you are expected to put your ass on the line for the policies a government creates then you should have a word in them.

[Rhyfelwyr]

As Louis hinted at, the household, as opposed to the individual, is the basis of our society, and the classical economic unit. It is ridiculous to think that one extended family may be able to promote its interests over another through having more inhabitants with the vote, simply on the grounds that it is larger! To relate this to the OP, 'one household one vote' would also solve the issue of voting at a certain age, since we could remove age boundaries entirely, since a person will only become a householder once they reach a relatively mature age, and have some life experience. Age cutoffs are arbitrary, this system would create a voting base with the values discussed earlier that make for a healthy electorate.

Furthermore, I propose a class-based voting system, similar to that of the old three-estates. An excellent real life examples is the Prussian three-class franchise.

While some lefties may at first complain, if they think about it, this is precisely the sort of system they should support if they honestly combine their socialist ideals with support for democracy. If society is fundamentally divided along class lines, and a person's class is what determines their political concerns, then it seems that all people can only be fairly represented if their class is given a voice in parliament.

Since there are far more working-class than middle-class people and nobility combined, then a system of 'one person one vote' in a single chamber would lead to a tyranny of the majority by the working classes, leaving the other two without democratic representation.

Only a greedy capitalist that denies the existence of class struggle would want a Parliament where every person gets one equal vote.

All good socialists should support the above system.

To try to link all these ideas together, the common theme is that it is silly idealism to think that the individual is the basis of society, and completely ignores the reality of the social/economic/political nature of society today, which is far too complex for such a simple system.