That is gonna give us some mighty good comedyOriginally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Re: What should the voting age be?
That is gonna give us some mighty good comedy
They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.
Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy
Re: What should the voting age be?
As in (18). There is people in their 20's in my classes who don't even vote, so that doesn't mean squart Sasaki that being 21 or 25 will make you 'more mature' when it comes down to vote. The students aren't even sign up to vote. Pathetic.
18 is fine with me. 21-30 is to long away and 16 is to young.
Re: What should the voting age be?
No, I do not want fries with that.All good socialists should support the above system.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Re: What should the voting age be?
this could work especially well if I could create the notion that disagreeing with me politically is a sign of imbecility.
you may be on to something sir.
"If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
-Josh Homme
"That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
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Re: What should the voting age be?
The age of majority is the age at which the law recognizes you as a full, independent member of society. This means you are no longer treated differently if you commit crimes and your parents no longer have any legal authority to regulate your actions. This last one is particularly important, as minors (those under the age of majority) are usually not held to the same standards as adults when it comes to legal responsibilities. If the voting age is lower than the age of majority, then the nation is allowing individuals to vote even though they are not legally considered mature enough to handle all decisions in their own lives. If the voting age is higher than the age of majority, then the nation is preventing an individual from voting even though they are legally responsible for all of their actions. Neither of those situations seems just.
While some rights may vest in an individual prior to age 18 (and some after age 18), in nearly all places in the US (some state laws may vary) 18 is the age of majority with respect all rights of any significance, particularly guardianship and criminal law. So, 18 seems like the proper age to me in the US. If other nations have higher or lower ages of majority, the voting age should be adjusted in those nations to match the age of majority.
Last edited by TinCow; 11-02-2010 at 18:31.
Re: What should the voting age be?
Isn't there a difference between personal decisions like committing a crime or signing a contract, and a decision like voting?
Re: What should the voting age be?
What people seem to forget, is what voting actually represents in our society.
Voting is the non-violent way to express your opinion on society. If people don't have that option, they will resort to violence. Do I need to remind people of the burning Renaults of Paris?
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: What should the voting age be?
Yes, but from a legal perspective the difference is that minors are usually not considered to have enough knowledge to be able to make properly informed decisions about these things. While there are exceptions in the case of some severe crimes, minors are generally treated different when they commit crimes because they are not considered old enough to truly understand the consequences of their actions. As far as contracts go, it's a consent issue. Minors generally cannot give such legal consent, because consent requires a full understanding of the situation, which minors are (again, with exceptions) considered incapable of having. It's the same basic premise behind statutory rape; a minor cannot consent to sexual intercourse with someone much older than them (in most US states) regardless of their desire to commit the act because, as far as the law is concerned, they do not have the ability to understand the consequences of their actions.
Voting, like signing a contract, opening a bank account, getting a credit card, or undergoing a surgical procedure, is a serious action with significant real world repercussions. For this reason, in my opinion, it is reasonable to restrict the right to vote to those that have reached the age of majority. I am certainly open to the idea that the age of majority itself is perhaps not best pegged at 18, but that's a separate issue. As far as I am concerned, the two need to be the same, regardless of what the actual number is. Since it is currently 18 in the US, that makes me support 18 as the proper voting age.
Re: What should the voting age be?
Well, my point with bringing up personal is that it seems like we would have a different standard for decisions which effect primarily the person who makes them and decisions which effect society as a whole. It's like we say "well, your 18, if you want to smoke they are your lungs". But I would think we would automatically have higher expectations for someone who would be making that decision for everyone.
I guess a good example is the age limit for president (35). Interestingly, the minimum age for House of Reps is 25. Do you think those should be set at the age of majority?
Re: What should the voting age be?
Then change the military enlistment age to 25 or 35 then and you'll see how many people will join then.
No,why? You think a 35 year old can be anymore mature then a 18 year old? I can beg to differ.
Re: What should the voting age be?
Financial and legal decisions, such as signing contracts, etc., certainly impact other people, namely the people you are contracting with or dealing with. Take a look at the current mortgage crisis for evidence. While each individual mortgage default hurts the homeowner the most, the cumulative effect of all of them together has thrown the entire country into a major recession. That's just as serious a decision as casting a single vote for an elected official who may also turn out to be a disaster for the country as a whole. If someone has the legal capacity to get a mortgage (or hold a credit card, etc.) then they are also being entrusted with a responsibility that potentially has repercussions for others.
I think part of this question is difficult because, despite the general age of majority being set at 18, there are many other responsibilities that are given to people at other ages. Driving poorly can kill other people, yet most States allow minors to drive at 16 or thereabouts. Drinking alcohol is also a personal choice, but the public consequences of intoxication are felt to be sufficiently severe as to warrant a drinking age of 21, three years over the age of majority. For me though, the one legal aspect that I really have difficulty overcoming is the draft. If the law considers someone to be mature enough to make a decision to kill another person and die in service of their country, I think that same person must also be considered mature enough to vote for the politicians who decide when and how those wars are conducted.
The age limit for President and Congress are far less clear-cut issues for me. I understand the desire to have someone be 'mature' prior to holding those offices, but 35/25 seem pretty randomly chosen. Given the nature of the election process itself, I think it would be perfectly fine to change the age requirement for those positions to the age of majority. I think it's highly unlikely that anyone under those ages would ever be elected to those posts anyway, so the laws seem unnecessary.
Re: What should the voting age be?
I think the wide variety of ages is a good indicator that setting things at the age of majority is not sufficient...
16: drive
18: smoke, sign contracts
21: drink
25: house of reps
30: senator
35: president
There's a clear scaling up. I know that driving can effect other people, but the idea is that there is nothing about being 16 that makes you worse at driving than any other new. Which may be wrong. But at least in terms of skill it's a fairly simple matter of coordination and a few dozen hours of experience. For smoking we say 18 is the age at which you understand the health risks. For drinking, you have to understand the health risks and then the risks to others that come along with being drunk. House-->senate-->president is a clear scaling up of difficulty. So, don't we specifically tailor the age to whatever it is that's at stake and what qualifications are required? I think taking out a mortgage is clearly a simpler thing to understand than an entire economic policy (also there was more going on than just a failure of personal responsibilities...).
It seems fairly evident that the drafting age would have to be raised if the voting age was raised.
Re: What should the voting age be?
That's a problem though. The draft age is set due to the requirements of the military. The older people get, the less adaptable they are to military discipline and the harder it is to get them to obey orders without question. At the same time (IIRC), overall physical ability begins to deteriorate in humans in the early 20s, and the 18-22 age range (4 years is the basic period of service for an enlistment) pretty much represents a person's peak in physical fitness. Shifting the lower level of the draft age upwards would decrease the effectiveness of the military during a time of severe need (which is the only period when a draft is used anyway).
It's also worth noting that young people are already less influential, per capita, than every other age group during elections , simply because far fewer of them vote:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p20-562.pdf
Percentage of citizens who voted in November 2008, by age:
That's a pretty steep curve there, and that was during the Obama election, when the youth vote was unusually highly motivated. Even if you look at it in terms of absolute numbers, younger still loses out overall, as fewer 18-24yos voted than any other age group, except 75+.18 to 24 years . . . . . . . . . . . 48.5
25 to 34 years . . . . . . . . . . . 57.0
35 to 44 years . . . . . . . . . . . 62.8
45 to 54 years . . . . . . . . . . . 67.4
55 to 64 years . . . . . . . . . . . 71.5
65 to 74 years . . . . . . . . . . . 72.4
75 and older . . . . . . . . . . . . . 76.6
Last edited by TinCow; 11-02-2010 at 20:33.
Re: What should the voting age be?
I'm not very convinced about the physical deterioration...I think that's more of a description of how it is than a biological thing. People will be less likely to be peak performers but that doesn't seem to be required. And there are a bunch of issues with the draft in the first place. Besides, if I'm 17 and can't vote for president, and then I turn 18 and the president who I couldn't vote for institutes the draft...??? How about the fact that the vast majority of the people voting aren't eligible for the draft? When in our future will we need one? Couldn't we readjust the age if something like that occurred? Would it make a difference in the vote?
re: influence of young people, that is really only part of my concern. Mainly I dislike the idea of having people commit to a personal identity and set of moral beliefs when they are in high school. That's just a powerful bias we're instilling, and it's the worst kind too, because people who haven't arrived at their beliefs through thinking about it have much less respect for people who disagree.
Last edited by Sasaki Kojiro; 11-02-2010 at 20:47.
Re: What should the voting age be?
Please explain.
"When the candles are out all women are fair."
-Plutarch, Coniugia Praecepta 46
Re: What should the voting age be?
There is an upside to that. If you arrive at a believe at an early age, odds are good that at some point in your life you will change your mind, or at least become more nuanced in your convictions.
This creates respect for different ideas.* If you disagree with yourself, or your former self, you realise that people are not born with ideas which they must seek to spread or defend against those with different beliefs, like orcs and elves in Lord of the Rings. Convictions are a personal journey, to be refined, discarde, picked up again. You were not Stalin when you were the young socialist with a heart, and you are not Hitler when you're the forty year old with a brain.
*At least those with some intellectual honesty, and a memory. Not those apply beliefs backwards: 'I have always said that...'
Re: What should the voting age be?
Trust such a middle-class snobby capitalist to poke fun at my form of employment. Away, bourgeois!
I hope you have not married outside your class, I find such a prospect quite ghastly!
Heh, well if you think about it it makes perfect sense. Socialists say that society is dictated by economic/materialist factors, and deny that the individual is free to pursue happiness by himself, since he is subject to class structures. Therefore it is meaningless to give the vote on an individual basis, since interests exist purely along class lines.
And if such socialists are really committed to democracy, they will see that allowing for one person one vote in a single chamber will mean that only the most populous class, the working-class, will be represented, since they will be able to form a tyranny of a majority with their voting block. The middle-class and nobility would have no voice, which is undemocratic. So the seats in Parliament must be divided 33% to each class. That way everybody has their interests heard, and they can work together for the good of the nation as a whole.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: What should the voting age be?
Also, democracy is not about making the best decisions. Suffrage is not about IQ or political insight.
Democracy is about granting a voice to all, about granting rights and dignity to the convictions of all citizens, smart or dumb, rich or poor. Not because all people all have smart convictions, but because everybody has convictions that are their own.
Democracy is not about installing a sane, or even workable form of government,. It is about human rights, about dignity, about equality, about giving everybody a stake in society. The origin of democracy is not the laboratory of the political scientist devising the perfect state. The origins are the loftiest enlightenment, humanist ideals about freedom and the nature of man. Universal suffrage is the final product of the ideals of liberty, equality and (pick one) A) fraternity, or B) hedonistic pursuit of individual happiness.
Re: What should the voting age be?
I do believe I already have. Nevertheless, I'll happily do it again:
In a world where uninformed people haave power over you, it is in your best interest to educate and enlighten them.
In a world where they have no power, it is in your best interest to keep them from gaining knowledge, as that will lessen your own power. Ref/ what happen to the power of organized religion once the common man learned to read the holy books.
And having more educated people around is good for you, since that will make it easier to come up with the brilliant ideas we need for society to progress. Therefore, giving power to the "uninformed masses" is a strength, not a wisdom.
Plato was a short-sighted and arrogant arsehole.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: What should the voting age be?
Naaaaaahhh
What about justice, domestic tranquility, the common defense, general welfare, and the secure blessings of liberty?
Anyway, your all citizens...etc is already "all adult citizens...etc". And so it is with the age at 25 compared to 18. Your argument is more directed at having a qualification test that must be passed.
Are the odds good? Anyway, people at 18 will still have beliefs. They will just not have committed to them in the same way. They won't have the "well, I voted X last three elections..." in the back of their mind the whole time.There is an upside to that. If you arrive at a believe at an early age, odds are good that at some point in your life you will change your mind, or at least become more nuanced in your convictions.
Re: What should the voting age be?
Yes, I suppose that would be an option. Interestingly, Wikipedia shows that the age of the draft has shifted wildly over the years. The very first Selective Service Act (1917) set the age of the draft as 21 to 30, with the age shifted to 21 to 45 in 1918. In 1940, the new draft age was set at 18 to 65 (!!!), and it's wavered up and down on the lower end of the scale since 1948.
I understand what you're saying, but I'd need to see evidence that people are more willing to change their minds as they get older. My instinct makes me think that it's the other way around. Personally, I've only voted Republican once in my entire life, and that was when I was exactly 18 years old.
Re: What should the voting age be?
The 65 year olds must not have been for active duty...
Yes, the evidence part is the weak point, though it works both ways. I do recall studies showing that when people were instructed to write a short paper arguing a random point, follow up studies showed that something like 90% of them believed in the point they had defended. So it's less about minds changing as it is minds not being set. I think when people vote at 18 they have to justify that decision to themselves, and even though it is often based solely on their upbringing they will invent something and stick with that.I understand what you're saying, but I'd need to see evidence that people are more willing to change their minds as they get older. My instinct makes me think that it's the other way around. Personally, I've only voted Republican once in my entire life, and that was when I was exactly 18 years old.
To expand, I think the psychological research (which is common sense really) on our reasoning ability shows that it evolved to produce arguments and to evaluate arguments of others. But often when we produce arguments we fit them to a conclusion we already have or want (confirmation bias) and when evaluating the arguments of others we refute them anyway we can. Unless we have an additional motivation for truthfulness or honesty, which is pretty scarce and weak. So fundamentally when you have people saying "I'm a republican/I'm a democrat" they will filter everything through that. And we should delay their identifying with a party until they have a better filter.
Last edited by Sasaki Kojiro; 11-02-2010 at 22:03.
Re: What should the voting age be?
A 12-year old, who has reached the formal operational stage, is perfectly capable of finding out what society he wishes to live in, the difference between good and bad, just and unjust, etc through logical reasoning. He is perfectly capable of pointing out what is wrong, and also to explain why he thinks it's wrong and what one can do to improve the situation. They understand fairness, that even though something does not directly improve your situation it can still be good.
Thus, the voting age should be 12.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: What should the voting age be?
If the filter is your problem, playing with voting age isn't going to do anything about it. People still tend have an opinion on dilemma's regardless of whether or not they are actually allowed to affect it; age doesn't really mean that much there.
So if you are lacking in the filters department there is only one freemarket approach possible: throw as many types of them at the wall and see which ones stick. I.e. have more political parties to accelerate political debate and provide people with new insights/reasoning.
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Re: What should the voting age be?
If you're old enough to die for your country, then you're old enough to vote, drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, have sex with a consenting adult preferably of the same species.
What I find ironic is that you are required to pass a driving test to drive a car, but as long as you're at least 18 and have a pulse you can vote.
Give children, and those who think like them, the right to vote and they'll choose double portions of cake, candy, and ice cream for every meal.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*
Re: What should the voting age be?
That's why American politics are especially in a mess.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Re: What should the voting age be?
And at 25, car companies will rent you a vehicle that you may drive.
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Re: What should the voting age be?
California is probably the best example of this: both cuts to taxes as well as increase of servicess are wanted, but it's nigh on impossible to get funding for these measures passed.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Re: What should the voting age be?
Actually the situation in California is that up until this past election, Dems want to increase services and Repubs want to cut taxes and they cant decide on the budget because it takes 2/3 majority. What would always happen is that they would eventually cut taxes and increase services which is why the state is in debt, but not until government would have to give out IOU's for several months and people got sufficiently pissed to get the legislature to "compromise" AKA do both.
However we just passed two propositions changing the CA Constitution making the budget only require a simple majority and new taxes now need a 2/3 majority to pass. We shall see how that plays out.
EDIT: Also propositions for new spending always seems to pass but propositions for new taxes always seem to fail. Example: Prop 1A for mandated funding for a high speed rail system across the state was passed in 2008. In 2010 we just denied a Prop (20?) that would make an 18 dollar surcharge on vehicles for something to upkeep our state parks.
Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 11-03-2010 at 11:44.
Re: What should the voting age be?
Then democracy is worthless, the state is not a tool to make dumb people feel good.
Last edited by Skullheadhq; 11-03-2010 at 12:48.
"When the candles are out all women are fair."
-Plutarch, Coniugia Praecepta 46
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