November 9 1989

[Rhyfelwyr]

Sweden has a welfare state, it is not socialist. Denmark and Finland even less so, and Norway is only where it is because of a certain resource.

[Tellos Athenaios]

What kind of pick 'n choose rightist are you to say a welfare state is not socialism, nay to say it is not communism?!

[Rhyfelwyr]

I am the welfare state kind of rightist myself, not a market liberal. And socially conservative, yet politically liberal.

EDIT: It's not a sliding scale from welfare state - socialism - communism, you know!

[HoreTore]

Sweden has a welfare state, it is not socialist. Denmark and Finland even less so, and Norway is only where it is because of a certain resource.

Nonsense.

First off, FINLAND ISN'T A PART OF SCANDINAVIA. What their Hitler-loving behinds are up to is none of my concern.

Secondly, both Sweden and Denmark are just as social democratic as Norway is. We've all been ruled by a social democratic party for so long that even our conservative parties have social democratic policies.

EDIT: In the 90 years that has passed since they first took office in the beginning of the 1920's, the social democratic parties in Sweden and Denmark have ruled in 50 of them. No other party or ideology comes close to the influence social democracy has had on Scandinavian society.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Social democracy =/= socialism

And different people have different definitions for geographic regions sometimes, Finland is usually considered part of Scandinavia here.

[HoreTore]

And different people have different definitions for geographic regions sometimes,

That's like saying it's accurate to call a car a banana.

Finland is usually considered part of Scandinavia here.

.....And social democrat is just another word for a socialist.

[Rhyfelwyr]

That's like saying it's accurate to call a car a banana.

Africa used to mean the northern part of Tunisia and Asia used to mean Turkey, definitions change and come to mean different things for different people.

.....And social democrat is just another word for a socialist.

If social democrats were socialist they would probably call themselves socialist and not social democrats.

Fundamentally, social democrats support a capitalist system, they just tone done its excesses through a strong welfare state.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well to be fair socialism is not necessarily the opposite of capitalism. That's just one particular narrow interpretation called communism (and even that can in theory be reconciled with capitalism in some form or another). At the core capitalism is about how the economy works, and socialism is about how society works.

Anyway Scandinavia kind of varies with the topic. At one point it is basically “wherever the Vikings came from” the next it is the landmass protruding from Russia towards Denmark (aka Sweden, Norway, and yes, Finland).

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well to be fair socialism is not necessarily the opposite of capitalism. That's just one particular narrow interpretation called communism (and even that can in theory be reconciled with capitalism in some form or another). At the core capitalism is about how the economy works, and socialism is about how society works.

Socialism is primarily an economic theory, it calls for public ownership not of private property as some of its opponents use to slander it with, but of the means of the production. IMO Marx took Adam Smith's principles and applied them to an industrialised world (so yeah, not the opposite of capitalism).

......is that why they do refer to themselves as socialists....?

Sorry you're right the socialists are socialists, and by socialist I mean social democrat???

Social democracy is not just a branch of socialism. Social democrats share the same principles as socialists, but have very different ways of achieving them.

[HoreTore]

If social democrats were socialist they would probably call themselves socialist and not social democrats.

......is that why they do refer to themselves as socialists....?