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Thread: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

  1. #1

    Smile Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Greetings,everyone.
    I konw heavy infantry's pilum has ap effect and the nomal skirmisher‘s stat_pri_attr is thrown without ap . Does skirmisher‘s javelin has an ap effect in EB battle? If skirmisher‘s javelin doesn't have ap effect, I wonder how could they kill elephants so quickly with only +2. bonus .Would you please help me?
    Thanks forward.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by kidpacific View Post
    Greetings,everyone.
    I konw heavy infantry's pilum has ap effect and the nomal skirmisher‘s stat_pri_attr is thrown without ap . Does skirmisher‘s javelin has an ap effect in EB battle? If skirmisher‘s javelin doesn't have ap effect, I wonder how could they kill elephants so quickly with only +2. bonus .Would you please help me?
    Thanks forward.
    No, skirmisher javelins don't have an AP effect. However, the EDU guide states that thrown weapons are more effective against multi-hitpoint units, which may explain why javelins are so effective against elephants.

    (I'm assuming that "more effective" means that thrown weapons negate some or all of the multiple HP, but that's only an assumption. Maybe someone knows for sure?)
    Last edited by FriendlyFire; 11-14-2010 at 03:39.

  3. #3
    JEBMMP Creator & AtB Maker Member jirisys's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire View Post
    No, skirmisher javelins don't have an AP effect. However, the EDU guide states that thrown weapons are more effective against multi-hitpoint units, which may explain why javelins are so effective against elephants.

    (I'm assuming that "more effective" means that thrown weapons negate some or all of the multiple HP, but that's only an assumption. Maybe someone knows for sure?)
    On the EDU

    mount_effect: (elephant, chariot, cavalry)

    That's the effect they have on mounted unit

    say...
    Spearman: chariot -1, elephant -2, cavalry +3

    Javelineer: chariot +2, elephant +3, cavalry -2

    Reverse it and you will get the opposite effect

    ~Jirisys (EDU expert)
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire View Post
    No, skirmisher javelins don't have an AP effect. However, the EDU guide states that thrown weapons are more effective against multi-hitpoint units, which may explain why javelins are so effective against elephants.

    (I'm assuming that "more effective" means that thrown weapons negate some or all of the multiple HP, but that's only an assumption. Maybe someone knows for sure?)
    Thanks for your detailed relay.I understand in some extent. So skirmisher can deal Gaesatae effectively,while only do little harm to spartan hoplite?

    Quote Originally Posted by jirisys View Post
    On the EDU

    mount_effect: (elephant, chariot, cavalry)

    That's the effect they have on mounted unit

    say...
    Spearman: chariot -1, elephant -2, cavalry +3

    Javelineer: chariot +2, elephant +3, cavalry -2

    Reverse it and you will get the opposite effect

    ~Jirisys (EDU expert)
    Javelineer's attack is about 4-6,with +3 bonus is 7-9, no ap effect; India elephant's mount amor is 24 ,
    So i wonder how they can slaughter elephant so effectively.
    Last edited by Ludens; 11-14-2010 at 13:15. Reason: merged posts

  5. #5
    JEBMMP Creator & AtB Maker Member jirisys's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by kidpacific View Post
    Javelineer's attack is about 4-6,with +3 bonus is 7-9, no ap effect; India elephant's mount amor is 24 ,
    So i wonder how they can slaughter elephant so effectively.
    120 skirmishers vs 12 elephants?

    ~Jirisys (do the math)
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by jirisys View Post
    120 skirmishers vs 12 elephants?

    ~Jirisys (do the math)
    Thanks for answering.
    High exp archer's attack is higher than 7-9, but they seem to be useless vs elepahant. Even 100 skirmisher cavalries are much more useful than 160 high exp archers in this aspect. So i assume the difference comes from the range attack type. I think there are sonmething more than attack bonus.
    Last edited by kidpacific; 11-14-2010 at 06:46.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Perhaps Arrows and spears are different weapon types and thus have different attributes?

  8. #8
    JEBMMP Creator & AtB Maker Member jirisys's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaginacles View Post
    Perhaps Arrows and spears are different weapon types and thus have different attributes?
    From EDU:

    Code:
    ;181
    type             greek missile toxotai
    dictionary       greek_missile_toxotai      ; Toxotai
    category         infantry
    class            missile
    voice_type       Heavy_1
    soldier          hellenistic_missile_toxotai, 30, 0, 0.85
    mount_effect     chariot +2, horse -2, elephant +1
    attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, can_sap, very_hardy
    formation        1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 4, square
    stat_health      1, 1
    stat_pri         3, 0, arrow, 143, 15, missile, archery, piercing, none, 15 ,1
    stat_pri_attr    no
    stat_sec         7, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
    stat_sec_attr    no
    stat_pri_armour  2, 6, 0, flesh
    stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat        1
    stat_ground      0, 0, 1, -1
    stat_mental      8, low, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay  0
    stat_food        60, 300
    stat_cost        1, 411, 103, 40, 60, 411
    ownership        greek_cities, thrace, macedon, carthage, romans_julii, numidia, seleucid, egypt, dacia, armenia, gauls, scythia, slave
    Code:
    ;142
    type             greek skirmisher akontistai
    dictionary       greek_skirmisher_akontistai      ; Akontistai
    category         infantry
    class            missile
    voice_type       General_1
    soldier          hellenistic_missile_akontistai, 60, 0, 0.85
    mount_effect     elephant +2, chariot +2, horse -2
    attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, hide_long_grass
    formation        1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 7, square
    stat_health      1, 1
    stat_pri         4, 2, javelin, 55, 6, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
    stat_pri_attr    thrown
    stat_sec         7, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
    stat_sec_attr    no
    stat_pri_armour  1, 6, 2, flesh
    stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat        1
    stat_ground      0, 0, 0, -2
    stat_mental      8, low, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay  0
    stat_food        60, 300
    stat_cost        1, 810, 202, 20, 30, 810
    ownership        thrace, macedon, carthage, romans_julii, numidia, seleucid, egypt, greek_cities, dacia, armenia, gauls, scythia, slave
    Resuming: Akontistai: +1 elephant than Toxotai, Akontistai javelin +1 attack than toxotai, Akontistai +30 men than toxotai (normal unit size), Akontistai -7 ammo than toxotai.

    Akontistai advantage: 60*2*4*6=2880
    Toxotai advantage: 30*1*3*15=1350

    Akontistai advantage over toxotai: 2880/1350=2.133333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333

    ~Jirisys (I told you to do the math )
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by jirisys View Post
    From EDU:

    Code:
    ;181
    type             greek missile toxotai
    dictionary       greek_missile_toxotai      ; Toxotai
    category         infantry
    class            missile
    voice_type       Heavy_1
    soldier          hellenistic_missile_toxotai, 30, 0, 0.85
    mount_effect     chariot +2, horse -2, elephant +1
    attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, can_sap, very_hardy
    formation        1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 4, square
    stat_health      1, 1
    stat_pri         3, 0, arrow, 143, 15, missile, archery, piercing, none, 15 ,1
    stat_pri_attr    no
    stat_sec         7, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
    stat_sec_attr    no
    stat_pri_armour  2, 6, 0, flesh
    stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat        1
    stat_ground      0, 0, 1, -1
    stat_mental      8, low, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay  0
    stat_food        60, 300
    stat_cost        1, 411, 103, 40, 60, 411
    ownership        greek_cities, thrace, macedon, carthage, romans_julii, numidia, seleucid, egypt, dacia, armenia, gauls, scythia, slave
    Code:
    ;142
    type             greek skirmisher akontistai
    dictionary       greek_skirmisher_akontistai      ; Akontistai
    category         infantry
    class            missile
    voice_type       General_1
    soldier          hellenistic_missile_akontistai, 60, 0, 0.85
    mount_effect     elephant +2, chariot +2, horse -2
    attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, hide_long_grass
    formation        1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 7, square
    stat_health      1, 1
    stat_pri         4, 2, javelin, 55, 6, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
    stat_pri_attr    thrown
    stat_sec         7, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
    stat_sec_attr    no
    stat_pri_armour  1, 6, 2, flesh
    stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat        1
    stat_ground      0, 0, 0, -2
    stat_mental      8, low, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay  0
    stat_food        60, 300
    stat_cost        1, 810, 202, 20, 30, 810
    ownership        thrace, macedon, carthage, romans_julii, numidia, seleucid, egypt, greek_cities, dacia, armenia, gauls, scythia, slave
    Resuming: Akontistai: +1 elephant than Toxotai, Akontistai javelin +1 attack than toxotai, Akontistai +30 men than toxotai (normal unit size), Akontistai -7 ammo than toxotai.

    Akontistai advantage: 60*2*4*6=2880
    Toxotai advantage: 30*1*3*15=1350

    Akontistai advantage over toxotai: 2880/1350=2.133333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333

    ~Jirisys (I told you to do the math )
    you forgot the "thrown" attribute of the javelins, they will negate the double shield value against missiles, and deal more damage when the targets have more hitpoints.

    source : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344

    ~ Cute Wolf
    Last edited by Ludens; 11-15-2010 at 11:51. Reason: removed banter

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  10. #10

    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    I really didn't need to do the math, all you have to do is think about the size of a javelin compared to an arrow ^^

  11. #11

    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaginacles View Post
    I really didn't need to do the math, all you have to do is think about the size of a javelin compared to an arrow ^^
    Exactly. Sometimes you gotta just stop and relax. Not everything in life is Rocket Science!
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    you forgot the "thrown" attribute of the javelins, they will negate the double shield value against missiles, and deal more damage when the targets have more hitpoints.

    source : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344

    ~ Cute Wolf
    Many thanks, that is exactlly what i need.
    Because your kindness and knowledge, this problem is solved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaginacles View Post
    Perhaps Arrows and spears are different weapon types and thus have different attributes?
    Thanks for your help, you are a kind man.
    Last edited by Ludens; 11-15-2010 at 11:53. Reason: merged posts

  13. #13
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by kidpacific View Post
    Many thanks, that is exactlly what i need.
    Because your kindness and knowledge, this problem is solved.
    ahh, no problem mate, (...)

    ~ Cute Wolf
    Last edited by Ludens; 11-15-2010 at 11:54. Reason: removed banter

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  14. #14
    JEBMMP Creator & AtB Maker Member jirisys's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by kidpacific View Post
    Many thanks, that is exactlly what i need.
    Because your kindness and knowledge, this problem is solved.
    It wasn't a problem, so much as a query...

    try http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/mods/...ls/index.shtml for more detailed and complete information on most of the RTW modifiable files

    ~Jirisys
    Last edited by Ludens; 11-15-2010 at 11:54. Reason: removed banter
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    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    That picture means so much to me. it means you have the old style colour of the forums while I am stuck with this stupid red Shogun 2 background. How do I change it to be that babyshit brown colour again?
    Last edited by Ludens; 11-15-2010 at 11:54. Reason: removed quote
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Does skirmisher‘s javelin has ap effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blxz View Post
    That picture means so much to me. it means you have the old style colour of the forums while I am stuck with this stupid red Shogun 2 background. How do I change it to be that babyshit brown colour again?
    Go to the drop-down menu on the bottom left of the screen and select "Guild".
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