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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat:
Greece sees a lot of (illegal) immigration. Much of it passing through to go to Europe. Erm...to go further into Europe I mean. Little is done for these people. They are neither properly kept out by Greece (which the EU has now taken upon itself to an extent).
The local Greeks get restless. The little square where their children played five years ago is now unsafe, unruly. Groups of Afghan men get picked up every night, by a van driven by two Albanian or Bulgarian mobsters, off to do something unclear. There is mutual aggression between the locals and the foreign squatters.
makes schengen seem like a thoroughly stupid idea, pity we joined it............... no wait, we didn't!Greece sees a lot of (illegal) immigration. Much of it passing through to go to Europe. Erm...to go further into Europe I mean. Little is done for these people. They are neither properly kept out by Greece (which the EU has now taken upon itself to an extent).
The local Greeks get restless. The little square where their children played five years ago is now unsafe, unruly. Groups of Afghan men get picked up every night, by a van driven by two Albanian or Bulgarian mobsters, off to do something unclear. There is mutual aggression between the locals and the foreign squatters.
Originally Posted by Furunculus:
makes schengen seem like a thoroughly stupid idea, pity we joined it............... no wait, we didn't!
Not sure that's really the point... The UK's non-membership of Schengen is why there are seperate camps near Calais. If the UK were part of the Schengen agreement, it would just mean there would be fewer people camped out near Calais. All you really have to feel smug about is the channel makes schengen seem like a thoroughly stupid idea, pity we joined it............... no wait, we didn't!
Originally Posted by alh_p:
Not sure that's really the point... The UK's non-membership of Schengen is why there are seperate camps near Calais. If the UK were part of the Schengen agreement, it would just mean there would be fewer people camped out near Calais. All you really have to feel smug about is the channel
but that is exactly the point.Not sure that's really the point... The UK's non-membership of Schengen is why there are seperate camps near Calais. If the UK were part of the Schengen agreement, it would just mean there would be fewer people camped out near Calais. All you really have to feel smug about is the channel
while they are camped outside calais they are not in dear old blighty!
the border-hoppers are prevented from hopping the border, the channel on makes the legal enforcement more effective.
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy:
Neither did we.
that was mainly because ireland didn't want to threaten the open-borders business with the UK was it not?Neither did we.
Originally Posted by Furunculus:
but that is exactly the point.
while they are camped outside calais they are not in dear old blighty!
the border-hoppers are prevented from hopping the border, the channel on makes the legal enforcement more effective.
...but is France, or would the UK be, more awash with immigrants? Especially if the UK got more involved in EU external border policy and support, which it would have to have done.but that is exactly the point.
while they are camped outside calais they are not in dear old blighty!
the border-hoppers are prevented from hopping the border, the channel on makes the legal enforcement more effective.
Originally Posted by alh_p:
...but is France, or would the UK be, more awash with immigrants? Especially if the UK got more involved in EU external border policy and support, which it would have to have done.
pardon?...but is France, or would the UK be, more awash with immigrants? Especially if the UK got more involved in EU external border policy and support, which it would have to have done.
Originally Posted by alh_p:
...but is France, or would the UK be, more awash with immigrants? Especially if the UK got more involved in EU external border policy and support, which it would have to have done.
Are you seriously saying that IF the UK had joined somehow they'd be able to police the Greek / Italian / Maltese borders so well that the problem of illegal immigrants would all but disappear? That's a flattering statement to make, but sadly it's not the case....but is France, or would the UK be, more awash with immigrants? Especially if the UK got more involved in EU external border policy and support, which it would have to have done.
Think of a submarine. All those separate compartments so if there's a leak somewhere, the boat stays afloat. Maybe we could employ this somehow in the EU... Some soft of borders that were internal to prevent immigrants traipsing across Europe. We could check some sort of paperwork that proved who a person was and where they were from against a sort of searchable electronic list. Those that weren't on it could be detained and removed.
Just an idea...
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk:
Are you seriously saying that IF the UK had joined somehow they'd be able to police the Greek / Italian / Maltese borders so well that the problem of illegal immigrants would all but disappear? That's a flattering statement to make, but sadly it's not the case.
That is what I was questioning, just how much of a disaster zone the UK would actually be if it had signed up to Schengen. Lets try to have some rational predictions, not "ZOMG ITS FALLOUT BOURTON-ON-THE-WATER!11!!!!"Are you seriously saying that IF the UK had joined somehow they'd be able to police the Greek / Italian / Maltese borders so well that the problem of illegal immigrants would all but disappear? That's a flattering statement to make, but sadly it's not the case.
I'm not saying that, with the UK's shining light of exacting border controls, the EU's border problems would be gone, but the issue might be better addressed if the UK were not content to simply entrench itself behind the channel.
External borders (between two displined countries of roughly comparable standards) are a major waste of time for people going about legal business, but scarcely an inconvenience for those with more malign intentions.
There are smarter instruments of catching criminals and preventing illegal immigration.
You can check the passports of everybody on the boat / car / train / plane, but at some point you need to realise that unless you transform your borders to an impregnable fortress like the Berlin Wall, you are really mostly just inconveniencing normal citizens with intrusive questions, cavity searches and hours of delay, while those with malign intentions simply cross the border at night in an unpatrolled forest / beach / country road.
There are smarter instruments of catching criminals and preventing illegal immigration.
You can check the passports of everybody on the boat / car / train / plane, but at some point you need to realise that unless you transform your borders to an impregnable fortress like the Berlin Wall, you are really mostly just inconveniencing normal citizens with intrusive questions, cavity searches and hours of delay, while those with malign intentions simply cross the border at night in an unpatrolled forest / beach / country road.
Originally Posted by alh_p:
That is what I was questioning, just how much of a disaster zone the UK would actually be if it had signed up to Schengen. Lets try to have some rational predictions, not "ZOMG ITS FALLOUT BOURTON-ON-THE-WATER!11!!!!"
I'm not saying that, with the UK's shining light of exacting border controls, the EU's border problems would be gone, but the issue might be better addressed if the UK were not content to simply entrench itself behind the channel.
Projecting hysteria on percieved hysteria doesn't help, why are you lefties always using caps? We don't, so what's the point?That is what I was questioning, just how much of a disaster zone the UK would actually be if it had signed up to Schengen. Lets try to have some rational predictions, not "ZOMG ITS FALLOUT BOURTON-ON-THE-WATER!11!!!!"
I'm not saying that, with the UK's shining light of exacting border controls, the EU's border problems would be gone, but the issue might be better addressed if the UK were not content to simply entrench itself behind the channel.
Originally Posted by Furunculus:
that was mainly because ireland didn't want to threaten the open-borders business with the UK was it not?
Correct the common travel across the border between the North and the Republic is far more economically important than any EU travel arrangement.that was mainly because ireland didn't want to threaten the open-borders business with the UK was it not?
I laugh anyway at the people who hold up Shengen as some great moral force, when it came to it actually allowing people to work in EU only Britain, Ireland and Sweden allowed the Poles and other Baltic peoples in straight away.
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy:
Correct the common travel across the border between the North and the Republic is far more economically important than any EU travel arrangement.
I laugh anyway at the people who hold up Shengen as some great moral force, when it came to it actually allowing people to work in EU only Britain, Ireland and Sweden allowed the Poles and other Baltic peoples in straight away.
and we were right to do so.Correct the common travel across the border between the North and the Republic is far more economically important than any EU travel arrangement.
I laugh anyway at the people who hold up Shengen as some great moral force, when it came to it actually allowing people to work in EU only Britain, Ireland and Sweden allowed the Poles and other Baltic peoples in straight away.
Originally Posted by Furunculus:
and we were right to do so.
My brother married a Polish lady so he got a good deal at least and we were right to do so.
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy:
My brother married a Polish lady so he got a good deal at least
i'm practically in the same boat five years in.My brother married a Polish lady so he got a good deal at least
my boss has married a finnish girl
a work-mate is going out with a polish girl
another mate is also going out with a polish girl
my brother is going out with a Venezuelan yank.
it's all the rage these days.
Originally Posted by Furunculus:
makes schengen seem like a thoroughly stupid idea, pity we joined it............... no wait, we didn't!
Neither did we.makes schengen seem like a thoroughly stupid idea, pity we joined it............... no wait, we didn't!
Originally Posted by Furunculus:
makes schengen seem like a thoroughly stupid idea, pity we joined it............... no wait, we didn't!
Well, may I be allowed to channel a call for “bollox! makes schengen seem like a thoroughly stupid idea, pity we joined it............... no wait, we didn't!
etc.” here and point out:(1) Schengen is for members of Schengen countries. I.e. those immigrants got nothing to do with that: they are a different problem. (One of housing and some sort of supervision so they don't go “missing”.)
(2) Schengen further lowers barriers among Schengen members which means the cost of doing business that involves crossing borders on a routine basis is lowered substantially. Time is money, remember?
(3) And purely subjectively it's plain awesome I can just go where-ever I want to in Schengen countries without being interrupted by some bored and short-tempered sod in a high visibility jacket. You might never leave the shores of the UK, I would not know, but I can trivially step on a train to visit Hussar or Louis should I chose to without somebody asking for my passport then handing it straight back to me without even looking at me. (Which is what it is like when you exit the ferry from Calais in Dover; the French don't even bother asking for anything.)
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios:
Well, may I be allowed to channel a call for “bollox! etc.” here and point out:
(1) Schengen is for members of Schengen countries. I.e. those immigrants got nothing to do with that: they are a different problem. (One of housing and some sort of supervision so they don't go “missing”.)
(2) Schengen further lowers barriers among Schengen members which means the cost of doing business that involves crossing borders on a routine basis is lowered substantially. Time is money, remember?
(3) And purely subjectively it's plain awesome I can just go where-ever I want to in Schengen countries without being interrupted by some bored and short-tempered sod in a high visibility jacket. You might never leave the shores of the UK, I would not know, but I can trivially step on a train to visit Hussar or Louis should I chose to without somebody asking for my passport then handing it straight back to me without even looking at me. (Which is what it is like when you exit the ferry from Calais in Dover; the French don't even bother asking for anything.)
i'm afraid the bollox is all yours.Well, may I be allowed to channel a call for “bollox!
etc.” here and point out:(1) Schengen is for members of Schengen countries. I.e. those immigrants got nothing to do with that: they are a different problem. (One of housing and some sort of supervision so they don't go “missing”.)
(2) Schengen further lowers barriers among Schengen members which means the cost of doing business that involves crossing borders on a routine basis is lowered substantially. Time is money, remember?
(3) And purely subjectively it's plain awesome I can just go where-ever I want to in Schengen countries without being interrupted by some bored and short-tempered sod in a high visibility jacket. You might never leave the shores of the UK, I would not know, but I can trivially step on a train to visit Hussar or Louis should I chose to without somebody asking for my passport then handing it straight back to me without even looking at me. (Which is what it is like when you exit the ferry from Calais in Dover; the French don't even bother asking for anything.)
schengen's primary benefit of no internal borders only 'works' if the external border functions. it doesn't.
because we do not share schengen then people inside who shouldn't be cannot jump on eurostar or a plane and end up in britain.
as to my travel, i will be spending:
1. xmas in poland
2. next week in nuremburg
3. fortnight in poland back in august
4. week in berlin a year ago
5. fortnight in poland in july 09
6. weekend in spain in march 09
shall i go back any farther? and no, none of those border crossing was a real inconvenience.
so bollox indeed.
Originally Posted by Furunculus:
the external border functions. it doesn't.
That, together with “we got illegal immigrants, now what?” is the real problem here. Schengen is not.the external border functions. it doesn't.
Originally Posted by :
because we do not share schengen then people inside who shouldn't be cannot jump on eurostar or a plane and end up in britain.
Except that plenty often they manage it anyway.because we do not share schengen then people inside who shouldn't be cannot jump on eurostar or a plane and end up in britain.
Originally Posted by :
as to my travel, i will be spending:
1. xmas in poland
2. next week in nuremburg
3. fortnight in poland back in august
4. week in berlin a year ago
5. fortnight in poland in july 09
6. weekend in spain in march 09
Exactly the point! Schengen makes it that bit easier, especially for companies because they can simply send in their employees without having to worry/wait for any of that anymore.as to my travel, i will be spending:
1. xmas in poland
2. next week in nuremburg
3. fortnight in poland back in august
4. week in berlin a year ago
5. fortnight in poland in july 09
6. weekend in spain in march 09
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