Future for the British Isles?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Found a funny little piece on the BBC, called 32 County Paisley.

Having had a serious political career as a hardline politician, then adopting a more moderate stance, it seems Ian Paisley is using his semi-retirement to have some lulz with a bit of RL trolling.

'Tis top trolling, a ridiculous idea with just enough seriousness to get it taken seriously at first, before he notes that "another king did that at a certain famous watering place that I will not mention here today" (lmao), then compares himself to Jesus. What a guy.

But the issue of the changeing borders and the relationships of the states in the British Isles is a relevant. I remember something similar was discussed a while ago with Beskar's Viking Invasion map with the fortified parliament on the Isle of Man, and there are more confederal solutions for how things could work, as opposed to having strictly centralised states based in London/Dublin.

Ireland could be incorporated into a conferal arrangment retaining some powers at Dublin, but it's probably not going to happen, even if they need bailing out. But it might look more feasible with the rising nationalist movements in Scotland/Wales. There could be an arrangement similar to that seen in Spain.

Or maybe the regions of the UK will break of completely. Or maybe Northern Ireland could be incorporated into Ireland, given the declining unionist majority. Or maybe there could be a confederal Ireland, with Munster/Leinster/Connaught/Ulster, or maybe just reserve some power in Belfast from Dublin.

There are many possible solutions, but what is best?

[Justiciar]

Dissolve the state, and submit to Brussels?

[InsaneApache]

Freedom for Yorkshire.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Ireland has been a confederation for a long time, much like the United Kingdom and most European states. We're tribes at heart, not much more - the concept of the "nation state" as it pertains to Europe is a useful facility for starting wars, but not much else.

The Republic's future lies ever more close to the European Union, especially now we've been bought and paid for.

[gaelic cowboy]

Sorry Rhy the Germans got the down payment on the gaff before you, there will be Panzers in Ballymena soon enough.

[Louis VI the Fat]

All your Ireland are belong to us

[gaelic cowboy]

All your Ireland are belong to us

I remember that game don't remember where I seen it though.

[gaelic cowboy]

Found a funny little piece on the BBC, called 32 County Paisley.

Having had a serious political career as a hardline politician, then adopting a more moderate stance, it seems Ian Paisley is using his semi-retirement to have some lulz with a bit of RL trolling.

'Tis top trolling, a ridiculous idea with just enough seriousness to get it taken seriously at first, before he notes that "another king did that at a certain famous watering place that I will not mention here today" (lmao), then compares himself to Jesus. What a guy.

But the issue of the changeing borders and the relationships of the states in the British Isles is a relevant. I remember something similar was discussed a while ago with Beskar's Viking Invasion map with the fortified parliament on the Isle of Man, and there are more confederal solutions for how things could work, as opposed to having strictly centralised states based in London/Dublin.

Ireland could be incorporated into a conferal arrangment retaining some powers at Dublin, but it's probably not going to happen, even if they need bailing out. But it might look more feasible with the rising nationalist movements in Scotland/Wales. There could be an arrangement similar to that seen in Spain.

Or maybe the regions of the UK will break of completely. Or maybe Northern Ireland could be incorporated into Ireland, given the declining unionist majority. Or maybe there could be a confederal Ireland, with Munster/Leinster/Connaught/Ulster, or maybe just reserve some power in Belfast from Dublin.

There are many possible solutions, but what is best?

Hold on are you being serious

But the issue of the changeing borders and the relationships of the states in the British Isles is IRrelevant

(fixed it for you)

We have work to be doing here and bills to pay now we don't have time for religious conflict. Hence the running at the minute for our President after the current one steps down has Senator David Norris an openly flamboyant homosexual and Church of Ireland member as a popular choice.

We may be a vassal of Germany now my good man but that does not mean were about to accept a monarch as head of state.



Sorry we much prefer this fella Ajai Chopra from the IMF, thats him there with the brown shoulder bag walking the streets of Dublin.

[Rhyfelwyr]

We have work to be doing here and bills to pay now we don't have time for religious conflict. Hence the running at the minute for our President after the current one steps down has Senator David Norris an openly flamboyant homosexual and Church of Ireland member as a popular choice.

Eh wut, where did I say anything about religious conflict? I had in mind the issue with Scottish/Welsh nationalism, plus obviously how things are changing in Northern Ireland. Why would you think I am not being serious? You do know the SNP plan to hold a referendum on independence soon, Plaid Cymru will probably follow suit. The issue is whether there will be more devolution, or full independence. Plus I don't know why you dismiss the idea of change in the Irish situation, obviosuly Paisley's suggestion was a joke, but the relationship between the North and the Republic is currently pretty ambiguous, it's not a lasting solution, and surely the changeing demographics and the current crisis of unionism threatens the status quo.

This is nothing to do with religion/ethnic conflict its about civic nationalism, the decline of the relevance of the centralised state with deindustrialisation. There's been a fair bit of work done recently that suggests this phenonema is taking place right across Europe (Bavaria, Belgium falling apart, Basques, Catalonia, Brittany, southern Italy etc), so it's not surprising that its relevant to the UK as well.

You really don't think these issues are relevant or to be taken seriosuly?

[Louis VI the Fat]

You really don't think these issues are relevant or to be taken seriously?

The issues must be taken seriously. They do, however, all have in varying degrees of tragedy a history of tiresome strife.

There is in the end precious little to gain with border re-arrangements, but a lot to lose from decades of civil strife. Norn Iron (Catalonia / Québec / Flanders) will be a reasonably functioning democracy within their current political constellation, and they will be as an independent state. One can wonder if it is worth the hassle of going about a lenghty divorce.

In each case, one can see how history could've gone differently. The current situation is not more logical than another arangement. Why should the British Isles be two states (and some smaller territories with their own arrangement)? Why not a single state? Why not five states?

The idea is that in a democracy an arrangement can be worked out that respects the rights and interests of all involved. In the case of the British Isles, whatever one may think of the history behind it all, a workable solution seems to have been arrived at, over the course of many years, one that does justice to the varying and sometimes conflicting interests of all inhabitants of the Isles. It is al not set in stone. But it all should not be dismissed too carelessly, dismissed out of slightly immature concepts of nationhood or a wish to redo history.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hold on are you being serious

(fixed it for you)

We have work to be doing here and bills to pay now we don't have time for religious conflict. Hence the running at the minute for our President after the current one steps down has Senator David Norris an openly flamboyant homosexual and Church of Ireland member as a popular choice.

We may be a vassal of Germany now my good man but that does not mean were about to accept a monarch as head of state.



Sorry we much prefer this fella Ajai Chopra from the IMF, thats him there with the brown shoulder bag walking the streets of Dublin.

I think he is being serious, how serious Paisley is being - I'm not so sure.

Here's the thing though: Ireland finally split from the UK not because of nationalistic feeling (if that were true it would have happened earlier and Scotland at least would have followed suit) but because of specifically historical circumstances surrounding prejudice against the Irish, mostly the Roman Catholics.

Given that the last Prime Minister of Great Britain was a Roman Catholic I think it's fair to say that those prejudices are so much dry parchiament and faded ink. Reunification is in Ireland's (North and South) short term interest, and probably her long term as well. In reality the two states are only quasi-seperate at the moment anyway. This is obvious when you look at military service, voting rights and freedom of movement.

The major stumbling block is historically based ill feeling.

[gaelic cowboy]

Eh wut, where did I say anything about religious conflict? I had in mind the issue with Scottish/Welsh nationalism, plus obviously how things are changing in Northern Ireland. Why would you think I am not being serious? You do know the SNP plan to hold a referendum on independence soon, Plaid Cymru will probably follow suit. The issue is whether there will be more devolution, or full independence. Plus I don't know why you dismiss the idea of change in the Irish situation, obviosuly Paisley's suggestion was a joke, but the relationship between the North and the Republic is currently pretty ambiguous, it's not a lasting solution, and surely the changeing demographics and the current crisis of unionism threatens the status quo.

This is nothing to do with religion/ethnic conflict its about civic nationalism, the decline of the relevance of the centralised state with deindustrialisation. There's been a fair bit of work done recently that suggests this phenonema is taking place right across Europe (Bavaria, Belgium falling apart, Basques, Catalonia, Brittany, southern Italy etc), so it's not surprising that its relevant to the UK as well.

You really don't think these issues are relevant or to be taken seriosuly?

The likes of Paisley and co have always know they risk being voted out of existence one day and the rest of the UK will be happy to see the back of both communities hence there always trying to propose a dreamland mythical confederal solution.

The problem is that long term Unionism in the North must decide what it wants to safegaurd there own traditions we already have our state and were fine with it, the situation is by no means certain WE will let North join the South even if we are broke.

Paisley and co have a long term structural problem in that Sinn Fein will end up running the North but it's likely they wont have the enough votes for unification this will lead to more trouble. A future unified state initiated by the DUP/UUP will secure protection for marching and all that good stuff along with there churches and there own sense of identity as they would be allowed to retain free movement to Britain if they wanted.

Likely we might have to change some things about our state to facilitate Unionist sensibilities but there is absolutely no chance of reintegration into the British state that is a red line my good man.

Sinn Fein in such a unified country will fade to a nothing party like they are now here now today as Fianna Fail/Fine Gael/Labour try to court the most likely partner for coalition in Ulster Unionist Party/Democratic Unionist Party.

The future is a different Ireland to rework the old phrase we will do things differently there.

[gaelic cowboy]

I think he is being serious, how serious Paisley is being - I'm not so sure.

Here's the thing though: Ireland finally split from the UK not because of nationalistic feeling (if that were true it would have happened earlier and Scotland at least would have followed suit) but because of specifically historical circumstances surrounding prejudice against the Irish, mostly the Roman Catholics.

Given that the last Prime Minister of Great Britain was a Roman Catholic I think it's fair to say that those prejudices are so much dry parchiament and faded ink. Reunification is in Ireland's (North and South) short term interest, and probably her long term as well. In reality the two states are only quasi-seperate at the moment anyway. This is obvious when you look at military service, voting rights and freedom of movement.

The major stumbling block is historically based ill feeling.

The golden moment of opportunity was the 1920s a single unified state would have been achievable but the North had already decided to set up an effective social aparthied which toxified my country. An evolutionary arms race of Unionism/Nationalism was allowed to develop that was only going to end in violence they redraw electoral boundaries so we enshrine reunification in our law and on and on.

The kind of person Craig and Carson would have dealt with at the time was WT Cosgrave, Arthur Griffith, Kevin O'Higgins these were upper middle class catholics they share more in common with the likes of David Cameron to be honest. These men would have ended up running a state where the daily reality of haveing to run a multiethnic state would have prevented the worst excesses of Archbishop John Charles McQuaid.

The moment passed and we each were allowed to become so Catholic/Protestant we forgot to be christian to each other.

As I have stated many times my family fought for this country we disagreed with the treaty yes but we came to accept it grudgingly and after the declaration of the Republic we fully embraced constitutional nationalism the state was moving down a track we decided to get on.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Likely we might have to change some things about our state to facilitate Unionist sensibilities but there is absolutely no chance of reintegration into the British state that is a red line my good man.

Don't expect it or wan't it, I just used Paisley's comment to set up a discussion on the different possibilities for the British Isles as a whole. Still can't understand why you would think I'm not being serious, this is mainstream stuff I've read a fair bit of it for Uni recently. Scottish/Welsh/Irish nationalism is extremely relevant, they could reshape the whole British Isles.

[Beskar]

But the issue of the changeing borders and the relationships of the states in the British Isles is a relevant. I remember something similar was discussed a while ago with Beskar's Viking Invasion map with the fortified parliament on the Isle of Man, and there are more confederal solutions for how things could work, as opposed to having strictly centralised states based in London/Dublin.

Hah, I remember that. Makes 'Britain' a federal system, akin to Germany and USA and the Isle of Mann became Britain's Washington D.C due to its central position between the isles.

[gaelic cowboy]

Don't expect it or wan't it, I just used Paisley's comment to set up a discussion on the different possibilities for the British Isles as a whole. Still can't understand why you would think I'm not being serious, this is mainstream stuff I've read a fair bit of it for Uni recently. Scottish/Welsh/Irish nationalism is extremely relevant, they could reshape the whole British Isles.

I cant believe your serious because your talking about doing away with my country to satisfy in the context of the island of Ireland a wish/dream of the minority population on this island. I can say hand on my heart I am willing to live in a society where Unionist traditions and culture becomes a part of my own, but I am not ever going to give up the Republic for a monarchy it really is a simple as that.

Also lets get real here there is no chance of Wales or Scotland becoming seperate nations SNP may indeed have lots of Irish catholic emigrant voters but they cannot in and of themselves swing any vote even when taking into account the total Scotish Catholic numbers it is still not enough to break the Union. Wales has even less chance of leaving the Union than Scotland.

True as long as there are indigestible populations in Scotland and the North of Ireland this question will crop up but it is my opinion it is merely a bag of bones being shook for political gain.

Democracy is often actually at risk in my country due to instability in the North but the solution is not for us to do away with the Dail it is up to UUP/DUP to figure out how to live with Sinn Fein in the North.

[Beskar]

Hah, I remember that. Makes 'Britain' a federal system, akin to Germany and USA and the Isle of Mann became Britain's Washington D.C due to its central position between the isles.

Here it is, in short, Britain is broken up into smaller states, based on factors such as Historical reasons and Population. Each state has its own assembly, for regional management and administration. It then has an national parliament (based in Mann) which decides on factors such as Foreign policy and those which affect things on a national level.




* Don't get hooked on names and actual borders, they are a rough concept.

[gaelic cowboy]

What happens to the UK monarch in such a system are they still head of state or what??

I am intersted in being President of the Republic of Connacht though.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Here it is, in short, Britain is broken up into smaller states, based on factors such as Historical reasons and Population. Each state has its own assembly, for regional management and administration. It then has an national parliament (based in Mann) which decides on factors such as Foreign policy and those which affect things on a national level.




* Don't get hooked on names and actual borders, they are a rough concept.

Umm, the South-Western area should either be smaller and called "Dummonia", or larger and called "Wessex", where the South East (roughly defined by London as it's Eastern border).

Also, what's with pushing the Midlands so far North? Are you wood!

[gaelic cowboy]

Well if Connacht gets to retake County Clare from Munster as is shown on that map then myself and Beskar can start sitting down haggling over price right now. Those interloppers the Dal gCais taking our rightful territory from the muintir Connachta.

Connacht Abu.

[Louis VI the Fat]

What happens to the UK monarch in such a system are they still head of state or what??

I am intersted in being President of the Republic of Connacht though.

Awesome!

'LIBERTY, EQUALITY, FRATERNITY, UNION - After several unsuccessful attempts, behold at last Frenchmen arrived amongst you... Brave Irishmen, our cause is common. Like you we hold as indefeasible the right of all nations to liberty. Like you we are persuaded that the peace of the world shall ever be troubled as long as the British ministry is suffered to make with impunity a traffic of the industry and blood of the people . . . Union, Liberty, the Irish Republic! Such is our shout. Let us march. Our hearts are devoted to you; our glory is in your happiness.'

[Furunculus]

Awesome!

'LIBERTY, EQUALITY, FRATERNITY, UNION - After several unsuccessful attempts, behold at last Frenchmen arrived amongst you... Brave Irishmen, our cause is common. Like you we hold as indefeasible the right of all nations to liberty. Like you we are persuaded that the peace of the world shall ever be troubled as long as the British ministry is suffered to make with impunity a traffic of the industry and blood of the people . . . Union, Liberty, the Irish Republic! Such is our shout. Let us march. Our hearts are devoted to you; our glory is in your happiness.'

and the corporation tax...............?

[gaelic cowboy]

Melletts Bar in Swinford County Mayo is open since 1797 and for the 200th anniversery they issued there own legal tender.

[gaelic cowboy]

and the corporation tax...............?

Ah sure thats for people in Dublin and Cork were only poor farmers here the west of Ireland.

We would all of us here in Mayo fit right in France the chance to get access to good quality Salers cattle which can be crossed with the Black cow, in return we will send the last of our literature, poetry and music over to Louis we merely request the finest wine and cheese.

[Beskar]

Umm, the South-Western area should either be smaller and called "Dummonia", or larger and called "Wessex", where the South East (roughly defined by London as it's Eastern border).

Also, what's with pushing the Midlands so far North? Are you wood!

Yeah, there is some room for Improvement, the names and areas are just a rough guide. Wales is also far too east as well.

I am not too happy with "North West", too large and it has a high population per area as well, compared to lets say "Northumberland". It is a big improvement over my previous such picture though, which was devoid of important aspects such as population which was very uneven.

Well if Connacht gets to retake County Clare from Munster as is shown on that map then myself and Beskar can start sitting down haggling over price right now. Those interloppers the Dal gCais taking our rightful territory from the muintir Connachta.

Connacht Abu.

Hah! If we were in the position for such hagglings, I would be sending a letter to your office for those talks.

[drone]

Free Orkney! We will not submit to the tyranny of the Highlanders!

[Rhyfelwyr]

Free Orkney! We will not submit to the tyranny of the Highlanders!

They haven't discovered it yet it's still under the fog of war it seems. Either that or its been given back to the Norwegians.

I cant believe your serious because your talking about doing away with my country to satisfy in the context of the island of Ireland a wish/dream of the minority population on this island. I can say hand on my heart I am willing to live in a society where Unionist traditions and culture becomes a part of my own, but I am not ever going to give up the Republic for a monarchy it really is a simple as that.

From what I've gathered the general attitude of the majority of the Republic towards a united Ireland is indifference, not deference. If nationalists get a majority in the North and are able to take democratic towards unification, would the Republic reject them?

Also lets get real here there is no chance of Wales or Scotland becoming seperate nations SNP may indeed have lots of Irish catholic emigrant voters but they cannot in and of themselves swing any vote even when taking into account the total Scotish Catholic numbers it is still not enough to break the Union. Wales has even less chance of leaving the Union than Scotland.

I wouldn't overdo the thing with the SNP and Catholic voters, Catholics have boosted the SNP of late but its origins were amongst liberal/nominal Protestants/atheists, it still has support among these segments of the population. They are the most successful party in Scotland right now remember, their plans for a referendum are very real. I don't understand why you dismiss them, they are a mainstream and respected party, their views are taken seriously.

[gaelic cowboy]

From what I've gathered the general attitude of the majority of the Republic towards a united Ireland is indifference, not deference. If nationalists get a majority in the North and are able to take democratic towards unification, would the Republic reject them?

Indifference mainly because it has become an eternally delayable piety in effect, the South has an advantage in that all we really have to do is sit back and if it happens it happens most people are fine with that idea. Would we reject the vote for reunification no we cant because we signed the Good Friday Agreement which states we wait till the majority votes for it.

On this Nationalist reinvigration I have seen some writing on this from people like George Friedman and the like where a state divided like North is from the South has a major problem in that we have a land border with the North but they dont have one with UK. Effectively we can reinfuse our culture and politics into the North on a continual basis the UK cannot.

This is happening in the USA now with the rise of the Latinos they can continually reinvigorate the identity and culture but the older European stock cannot we basically gave them the lot ages ago.

The other problem for nation states is that power is being squeezed from the middle ie the state and going towards local and supra-national organisations which are taken over the BIG and the Local problems.

Effectively were globalising the local which was an idea proposed by Thomas Friedman in his book the World is Flat at least I think it was him I will have to dig out the book again.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Indifference mainly because it has become an eternally delayable piety in effect, the South has an advantage in that all we really have to do is sit back and if it happens it happens most people are fine with that idea. Would we reject the vote for reunification no we cant because we signed the Good Friday Agreement which states we wait till the majority votes for it.

Well that was what I was saying, you shouldn't dismiss the possibility of a united Ireland on the grounds that most people in the Republic don't care, since ultimately the impetus for it is going to come from the North. As you said the demographics are increasingly in Sinn Fein's advantage, how long can it be before they are in charge?

On this Nationalist reinvigration I have seen some writing on this from people like George Friedman and the like where a state divided like North is from the South has a major problem in that we have a land border with the North but they dont have one with UK. Effectively we can reinfuse our culture and politics into the North on a continual basis the UK cannot.

This is happening in the USA now with the rise of the Latinos they can continually reinvigorate the identity and culture but the older European stock cannot we basically gave them the lot ages ago.

The other problem for nation states is that power is being squeezed from the middle ie the state and going towards local and supra-national organisations which are taken over the BIG and the Local problems.

Effectively were globalising the local which was an idea proposed by Thomas Friedman in his book the World is Flat at least I think it was him I will have to dig out the book again.

Yeah this is all more what I was getting at in the OP. It's not about some archaic ethno-religious conflict in NI, it is about how these wider changes takes place at least in western Europe if not across the whole world will translate into the political systems in the British Isles. Personally I would prefer stronger local governments over 'national' parliaments at Edinburgh/Cardiff etc, since they create a lot of political problems and imbalances, and give a minority of citizens privileges over the rest.

[Rahwana]

I swear when I played as England in Kingdoms last time, all Wales, Scots, and Irish are dead under the hail of my longbowmen's arrows. Her Majesty will only need some years of blitzing if England want to prevails once more!!!