This Week's Evil Islam Thread

[Fragony]

Why not use that money to make the public school better?

If the christians want a private school where they get to teach that gays go to hell or creationism, I want a school where I can teach students that people of x colour are vermin.

You can honestly not see the difference? Christians don't dehumanise, it's 'want to go to hell well your call', disbelieving is a choice with consequences in death, not life

[al Roumi]

You can honestly not see the difference? Christians don't dehumanise, it's 'want to go to hell well your call', disbelieving is a choice with consequences in death, not life

You do yourelf a dis-service with such a broad post. Are you really saying that ALL Christians have a "live and let live" credo? And conversely, that ALL Muslims are intolerant? Come on...

Also, I think some of y'all non-Brutunculi miss something re the state/independant school issue here. There is a long historic tradition of independant schools -be it public/private schools or others, e.g. faith based or Rudolph Steiner. I don't think that these schools have to teach the national curriculum, but the kids do have to/find it easier to have a normal life by doing the national exams. Clearly, the organisation highlighted by Panorama is doing a lot wrong and should be sanctioned in some way, but lets not through the baby out with the bath water.

[Louis VI the Fat]

You do yourelf a dis-service with such a broad post. Are you really saying that ALL Christians have a "live and let live" credo? And conversely, that ALL Muslims are intolerant? Come on...

To say that 'Italy is hotter than Sweden' does not mean 'all of Italy is all of the time warmer than all of Sweden all of the time'.

Consequently, digging up some hot midsummer heatwave in Sweden, or pointing out the very cold Alpine regions of Italy do not disprove the statement either.

[rory_20_uk]

I am certain that persons of all religions can be intolerant. I do think however, that some religions do appear to be more tolerant of others. For example what is the penalty of stopping being a Christian in all major denominations? You'll go to hell when you die. Some Christians do try to make things worse by "saving the soul by destroying the body", but this is definitely post-hoc. In Islam? Death. Arguably, to not kill them you're having to re-interpret the texts.

This one is not a school, it's an after school. Private schools fall under OFSTEAD. When I was there we did have to adhere to the national curriculum. Things might have changed of course.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am certain that persons of all religions can be intolerant. I do think however, that some religions do appear to be more tolerant of others.

By what mechanism would religions all be exactly as tolerant of others? Or for that matter, all end up exactly as peaceful, embracing of diversity, stimulative of scientific enquiry, etc?

Different religions, like different political systems of thought, are...different.

[rory_20_uk]

By what mechanism would religions all be exactly as tolerant of others? Or for that matter, all end up exactly as peaceful, embracing of diversity, stimulative of scientific enquiry, etc?

Different religions, like different political systems of thought, are...different.

Indeed they are. And in the same way that some political systems are not welcome in the UK, some religions should also not be welcome. Merely as the Celts used to drink blood from skulls of their victims does not mean that the practice is welcome these days.

Religious tolerance should be a two way street; those that are intolerant should not be tolerated.

[Andres]

By what mechanism would religions all be exactly as tolerant of others? Or for that matter, all end up exactly as peaceful, embracing of diversity, stimulative of scientific enquiry, etc?

Different religions, like different political systems of thought, are...different.

Indeed. However, saying that a certain religion is aggressive/intolerant/some other negative adjective, is nowadays been frowned upon my misguided people who think that "tolerance" is the equivalent of "accept everything".

What people do in their own free time is up to themselves. Whether they want to pick flowers or learn how to kill is irrelevant to me, it's none of my bloody business.

Yeah sure. Let people indoctrinate their children to hate people who hold different views. It's none of our business. After all, we should be "tolerant".

[Rahwana]

Indeed. However, saying that a certain religion is aggressive/intolerant/some other negative adjective, is nowadays been frowned upon my misguided people who think that "tolerance" is the equivalent of "accept everything"..

very much true...

[HoreTore]

Yeah sure. Let people indoctrinate their children to hate people who hold different views. It's none of our business. After all, we should be "tolerant".

"Tolerance" has nothing to do with this.

I do not believe that we will get rid of nazism by banning it. I see no reason why we would get rid of extreme religion by banning it.


Our stance is morally superior to this. It's about bloody time we actually start believing that. Sanity will never lose a debate to insanity unless sanity simply concedes.

[Andres]

"Tolerance" has nothing to do with this.

I do not believe that we will get rid of nazism by banning it. I see no reason why we would get rid of extreme religion by banning it.


Our stance is morally superior to this. It's about bloody time we actually start believing that. Sanity will never lose a debate to insanity unless sanity simply concedes.

So, what do you propose to do when confronted with such issues?

Nothing at all? Ignore it completely?

I'd say educate them, but well, ehm, they prefer to educate themselves and, morally superior as we are, we must allow them to have their children learn what they think their children have to learn, and not intervene, so

[al Roumi]

However, saying that a certain religion is aggressive/intolerant/some other negative adjective, is nowadays been frowned upon my misguided people who think that "tolerance" is the equivalent of "accept everything".

No, the reason it is (or should be!) frowned upon is because the labeling of an entire religion -and by association the entire range of its adherents- demonstrates ignorance of its different interpretations.

As Hax has helpfully outlined, there is no single monolithic interpretation of Islam -and there is a real multitude of views within it. As ever, it's the bad bits that get picked up and denounced -which I think is right to do, but it is absolutely wrong to surmise that the whole of Islam is thus.

[Cute Wolf]

....
pride is the biggest sin... and sometimes, you can be proud over a futile "morally superrior" philloshopy, that in turns, will render you helpless when that was too late...

[Andres]

No, the reason it is (or should be!) frowned upon is because the labeling of an entire religion -and by association the entire range of its adherents- demonstrates ignorance of its different interpretations.

As Hax has helpfully outlined, there is no single monolithic interpretation of Islam -and there is a real multitude of views within it. As ever, it's the bad bits that get picked up and denounced -which I think is right to do, but it is absolutely wrong to surmise that the whole of Islam is thus.

If each time the reaction when such news comes out has to be "but not all muslims are like that", then you are at least giving the impression of being an apologist. Sure, you didn't say that you agree with children getting this kind of "education", but it wouldn't hurt if you would first start with explicity condemning this and then ask people to be careful not to think all muslims are like that.

Maybe it's not your intention, but this is exactly the kind of reaction I'm getting enough of. It comes accros as apologising, trying to divert attention away from this unacceptable event and making people scared to be labeled as "racist muslim haters" when they're rightfully disgusted by something as children being indoctrinated to hate non-muslims.

In fact, by constantly addressing this kind of issues like this, people will start becoming racist muslim haters for real.

I don't know if I explained myself well. It's a subtle mechanism that comes accross as a waving finger and a "don't you dare say something negative about Islam or you're a racist".

Being disgusted by this news about indoctrination of children is not the same as labelling all muslims as evil. In fact, it is in the best interests of the muslims to not tolerate this.

Just like Catholic pedophile priests should be locked up and the key thrown away, these people indoctrinating those children to start hating non-muslims should be locked up as well. Period, end of story. And no unnecessary drama over it.

Doing the ""people should not use this to label all muslims as evil and blahblahblah" and in the meanwhile ignoring the issue at hand"- thingy is doing a disservice to exactly the majority of muslims you are trying to defend.

I also fail to see the relevance of this or that interpretation of Islam. The issue is: children are being indoctrinated to hate people of different religions. That's what we are talking about. You may find the fact that this particular case of indoctrination is organised by some Islamic group inconvenient, but that's how it is. Now, instead of going defensive and "defend Islam against teh evil racists", it would be better to open your eyes and see what is happening. Then act on it.

EDIT: I also fail to see the relevance for this thread to know who won which war. I thought history was for the Monastery.

[HoreTore]

This one is not a school, it's an after school.

Well that changes everything in my opinion.

What people do in their own free time is up to themselves. Whether they want to pick flowers or learn how to kill is irrelevant to me, it's none of my bloody business.


I do not believe in limiting free speech.

[Rahwana]

meh, that very same things are taught in some schools here 10 years ago, and now, they start to hatch suicide bombers and terrorists, ok ok, Europe is not here, and far away in half the globe BTW, and I'll just laugh when 10 years from now, European start to produce muslim terrorists that create a lot of bloody fireworks in Europe because some "tolerant leftists" leave them out and "protect their rights"...

not my business, not my business...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Go grab their neck and throw them out of your country you idiot "tolerant leftists" they are the very seeds of terrorists!!!

*. PS: sorry to use the word "idiots", I just can't choose another words to describe that...

[Fragony]

meh, that very same things are taught in some schools here 10 years ago, and now, they start to hatch suicide bombers and terrorists, ok ok, Europe is not here, and far away in half the globe BTW, and I'll just laugh when 10 years from now, European start to produce muslim terrorists that create a lot of bloody fireworks in Europe because some "tolerant leftists" leave them out and "protect their rights"...

not my business, not my business...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Go grab their neck and throw them out of your country you idiot "tolerant leftists" they are the very seeds of terrorists!!!

*. PS: sorry to use the word "idiots", I just can't choose another words to describe that...

Yeah these are the ones, the 'tolerant leftists', decency fundi's they aren't all that tolerant they are vicious against anything that isn't 100% ok, sectists bah. And you can't reason with them, they are morally superior basta

[Rhyfelwyr]

It's not like its just leftists that are guilty of it, the standard centre-right parties seem to be pretty much the same. But then the far-right go too far in the other direction. Bah!

[Fragony]

You do yourelf a dis-service with such a broad post. Are you really saying that ALL Christians have a "live and let live" credo? And conversely, that ALL Muslims are intolerant? Come on...

Also, I think some of y'all non-Brutunculi miss something re the state/independant school issue here. There is a long historic tradition of independant schools -be it public/private schools or others, e.g. faith based or Rudolph Steiner. I don't think that these schools have to teach the national curriculum, but the kids do have to/find it easier to have a normal life by doing the national exams. Clearly, the organisation highlighted by Panorama is doing a lot wrong and should be sanctioned in some way, but lets not through the baby out with the bath water.

I never say all you just read that, you do me a disservice by assuming I'm that dumb.