This Week's Evil Islam Thread

[HoreTore]

Yeah sure. Let people indoctrinate their children to hate people who hold different views. It's none of our business. After all, we should be "tolerant".

"Tolerance" has nothing to do with this.

I do not believe that we will get rid of nazism by banning it. I see no reason why we would get rid of extreme religion by banning it.


Our stance is morally superior to this. It's about bloody time we actually start believing that. Sanity will never lose a debate to insanity unless sanity simply concedes.

[Andres]

"Tolerance" has nothing to do with this.

I do not believe that we will get rid of nazism by banning it. I see no reason why we would get rid of extreme religion by banning it.


Our stance is morally superior to this. It's about bloody time we actually start believing that. Sanity will never lose a debate to insanity unless sanity simply concedes.

So, what do you propose to do when confronted with such issues?

Nothing at all? Ignore it completely?

I'd say educate them, but well, ehm, they prefer to educate themselves and, morally superior as we are, we must allow them to have their children learn what they think their children have to learn, and not intervene, so

[HoreTore]

So, what do you propose to do when confronted with such issues?

Nothing at all? Ignore it completely?

I'd say educate them, but well, ehm, they prefer to educate themselves and, morally superior as we are, we must allow them to have their children learn what they think their children have to learn, and not intervene, so

Just why on earth do you think I want to "do nothing"...?

Where did you get that from my post?

[Andres]

Just why on earth do you think I want to "do nothing"...?

Where did you get that from my post?

Well, if you're not going to do nothing, then what will you do against this?

I was under the impression that the "not my bloody business" meant "let them, if that's what they want, not my problem" in a laissez-faire, laissez-passer kinda way

[rory_20_uk]

Sanity often looses a debate as the world isn't sane!

What was sane about the Great Leap Forward? Was it an accident waiting to happen? Yes it was - but it still happened. And it by no means stopped the Cambodians undertaking a similar exercise with even worse results (as a percentage of the population).

Surely you've heard it said that it is easier to defend a position that is "known" to be true than argue against it? If you are merely agreeing with current wisdom that fits into a 20 second soundbyte. If you want to argue against it with a reasoned argument... you can't. There's no time and if you try the punchy 20 second job you often sound like a lunatic.

In times of stress or disaster people want certainties. Generally science can't offer these, merely probabilities. People also want scape goats to exonerate themselves and someone else to take their anger out on. Rationality often fails on both accounts, but extremists often supply both in droves.

If you think that all people are open minded and inquisitive for the truth you'll be severely let down by reality.

[HoreTore]

Sanity often looses a debate as the world isn't sane!

What was sane about the Great Leap Forward? Was it an accident waiting to happen? Yes it was - but it still happened. And it by no means stopped the Cambodians undertaking a similar exercise with even worse results (as a percentage of the population).

Surely you've heard it said that it is easier to defend a position that is "known" to be true than argue against it? If you are merely agreeing with current wisdom that fits into a 20 second soundbyte. If you want to argue against it with a reasoned argument... you can't. There's no time and if you try the punchy 20 second job you often sound like a lunatic.

In times of stress or disaster people want certainties. Generally science can't offer these, merely probabilities. People also want scape goats to exonerate themselves and someone else to take their anger out on. Rationality often fails on both accounts, but extremists often supply both in droves.

If you think that all people are open minded and inquisitive for the truth you'll be severely let down by reality.

Allright then.

Communism was illegal in the Russian Empire, and yet they managed to take power and murder millions.

Hitler was jailed.

Extreme Islam was illegal in Iran and they still manged to take power.

Castro's revolution was illegal.

Cambodias communism was illegal.

I could go on and on. Every single undemocratic force which has taken power by force has been illegal. Why on earth do people still believe that what hasn't worked 928374 times in a row will somehow magically work the 928375th time...?

[rory_20_uk]

To look a population studies you don't just draw conclusions from where it happened to work, you look at the whole population and see the number of places where it didn't, and ideally compare places where take-overs were done within the systems.

Oh, Hitler was elected to power legally.
And look at Africa. The number of leaders who have extended their terms in office or just removed the opposition parties show that usurping power from within democracies is alive and well.

Slavery in Europe / USA was got rid of as it was banned
The Tugee cult was destroyed as it was banned and hunted out of existence.
Pirates were removed from the sea not by debate, but by blowing them out of the water (we're trying the debate method at the moment - and it isn't working[!])

I could go on too.

It's easy to see where things haven't worked, a lot harder to know when they have and hence nothing happened.

[HoreTore]

Well, if you're not going to do nothing, then what will you do against this?

I was under the impression that the "not my bloody business" meant "let them, if that's what they want, not my problem" in a laissez-faire, laissez-passer kinda way

So when I mention "debate" you somehow think I'm talking about "being silent"? Or is that just your prejudice?

Anyway....

Debate and education is the way forward. We simply need a little faith in our own moral stance, and the fact that it is far superior to barbarism. Democracy, rationality and logic go hand in hand.

I'll give you an example: the neo-nazi's used to have quite an influence here where I live. Even though the police have been after them from day one, they've just grown bigger and bigger. They are now, however, all but gone. When did that happen? When they ran in the election. A couple of weeks of actual debate, and they disintegrated. The leaders quit and the organization is no more. The conclusion I make of this is that forcing something into the underground doesn't work at all, while public debate kills it almost overnight.

But the lack of faith people have in our culture, democracy and morals disappoints me. And it's pathetic to see that the ones who talk most about our moral superiority are the ones with the lesat faith in it, and whom I suspect to be closet authoritarians.