This Week's Evil Islam Thread

**Cute Wolf** · 11-24-2010, 22:29

....

pride is the biggest sin... and sometimes, you can be proud over a futile "morally superrior" philloshopy, that in turns, will render you helpless when that was too late...

**HoreTore** · 11-24-2010, 22:42

Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

....

pride is the biggest sin... and sometimes, you can be proud over a futile "morally superrior" philloshopy, that in turns, will render you helpless when that was too late...

Our principles made us great. It's only a few centuries since France couldn't even feed its own people, just a couple of years before she almost conquered all of europe.

Democracy and liberty has made us great. Dictatorships have given us crop failures in Russia. To turn our backs on what has made us great will only destroy us.

**Rhyfelwyr** · 11-24-2010, 23:27

Yeah I think there is a tendency to see democracies as weak in the face of external threats, but in reality there's a lot of studies that suggest being a democracy might improve how a state performs in war etc.

**HoreTore** · 11-24-2010, 23:35

Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Yeah I think there is a tendency to see democracies as weak in the face of external threats, but in reality there's a lot of studies that suggest being a democracy might improve how a state performs in war etc.

Indeed!

-Who won the American revolution? The democracy.
-Who won WW1? The democracies.
-Who won WW2? The democracies.
-Who won the cold war? The democracies.
-Who's winning the wars in the middle east? The democracy.
-Who won both gulf wars? The democracy(ies).

**Sarmatian** · 11-26-2010, 11:45

Originally Posted by HoreTore

Indeed!

-Who won the American revolution? The democracy.
-Who won WW1? The democracies.
-Who won WW2? The democracies.
-Who won the cold war? The democracies.
-Who's winning the wars in the middle east? The democracy.
-Who won both gulf wars? The democracy(ies).

I just wanna interject here and offer a slightly different viewpoint.

-Who won the American revolution? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who won WW1? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who won WW2? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who won the cold war? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who's winning the wars in the middle east? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who won both gulf wars? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money

**Husar** · 11-26-2010, 12:16

Who won the Afghan war in the 1990ies?
Who won the Vietnam war?
Who won the Korean war?
Who won the War on Drugs?
Who won the invasion of Cuba?
Who won the cuban revolution?
Who won the french revolution?
Who won the Greek/Persian war?
Who won the War on Terror?

**Rhyfelwyr** · 11-26-2010, 12:50

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

-Who won WW2? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money

Yeah, WWII is not the best example, since something like 85% of the Wehrmacht was deployed fighting the non-democratic USSR on the Eastern Front. Although I read somewhere else around 70% of the German war effort more generally (as opposed to manpower) was for the Western Front.

**HoreTore** · 11-26-2010, 14:25

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I just wanna interject here and offer a slightly different viewpoint.

-Who won the American revolution? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who won WW1? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who won WW2? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who won the cold war? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who's winning the wars in the middle east? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who won both gulf wars? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money

I take this as support for my position...

Except for the first one, the american revolutionaries certainly did not have a bigger production capability or more money than the British Empire.

Who won the Afghan war in the 1990ies? - one dictatorship defeated another dictatorship
Who won the Vietnam war? - irregular war, when I say "war" I'm referring to regular wars, occupying a country is something democracies have shown themselves to be poor at
Who won the Korean war? - noone?
Who won the War on Drugs? - this isn't a "war"
Who won the invasion of Cuba? - the dictatorship won, mostly because the democracy(US) withdrew its support at the critical moment. an invasion with the full backing of the US army would have had a completely different outcome.
Who won the cuban revolution? - the revolutionaries defeated a dictatorship
Who won the french revolution? - yes, who did really win the french revolution? I'll let Louis answer that one... But at any rate, there was at least one dictator on both sides
Who won the Greek/Persian war? - dictator vs. dictator
Who won the War on Terror? - irregular and ongoing

**gaelic cowboy** · 11-24-2010, 23:37

Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Yeah I think there is a tendency to see democracies as weak in the face of external threats, but in reality there's a lot of studies that suggest being a democracy might improve how a state performs in war etc.

We only have WW2 etc to go on but the thinking is a democray is usually not as well prepared for industrial scale warfare as say fascism or communism in early stages. The problem for autocrats is people who dissent are ignored or worse so you end up with no one saying "Mein Furher an invasion of the Soviet Union will fail" everyone ends up a yesman.

Also intelligence agencies of autocratic regimes are better at internal security than at disrupting the enemy a crucial part of warfare today, also members of autocratic governments waste resources watching each other to ensure there quids in with the leader and as a result not properly watching there enemy.

**HoreTore** · 11-24-2010, 23:45

Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

We only have WW2 etc to go on but the thinking is a democray is usually not as well prepared for industrial scale warfare as say fascism or communism in early stages. The problem for autocrats is people who dissent are ignored or worse so you end up with no one saying "Mein Furher an invasion of the Soviet Union will fail" everyone ends up a yesman. Also intelligence agencies of autocratic regimes are better at internal security than at disrupting the enemy a crucial part of warfare today and the autocrats tend to watch each other to ensure there quids in with the Leader and not the enemy

The problem isn't so much the yes men, the problem is a little more complex.

In a dictatorship, when you think of a great plan, you do it.

In a democracy, when you think of a great plan, some other guy will say "no that plan suck monkey testicles!". This reaction will make you look over your plan once more, working a little more on it, making it a little better.

following your hitler example:
Hitler thought of a great invasion plan of the Soviet Union, and so he did.

If he had been living in a democracy, somebody would've pointed out how retarded that plan was, and Hitler would've been forced to look at it again, thus noticing the glaring logistic errors it contained, fixed it and rid the world of smelly commies once and for all!'

Compare the differences in planning of d-day with operation barbarossa, and note which one was succesful....

**gaelic cowboy** · 11-24-2010, 23:53

Originally Posted by HoreTore

The problem isn't so much the yes men, the problem is a little more complex.

In a dictatorship, when you think of a great plan, you do it.

In a democracy, when you think of a great plan, some other guy will say "no that plan suck monkey testicles!". This reaction will make you look over your plan once more, working a little more on it, making it a little better.

following your hitler example:
Hitler thought of a great invasion plan of the Soviet Union, and so he did.

If he had been living in a democracy, somebody would've pointed out how retarded that plan was, and Hitler would've been forced to look at it again, thus noticing the glaring logistic errors it contained, fixed it and rid the world of smelly commies once and for all!'

Compare the differences in planning of d-day with operation barbarossa, and note which one was succesful....

I agree it is more complex than just having yesmen but it is a valid observation of these governments.

My bit on intelligence stands up I would say spying in Nazi Germany was a basically useless for warfare and only used to watch the people and to watch the other members of the government.

**HoreTore** · 11-25-2010, 00:03

Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

I agree it is more complex than just having yesmen but it is a valid observation of these governments.

My bit on intelligence stands up I would say spying in Nazi Germany was a basically useless for warfare and only used to watch the people and to watch the other members of the government.

The authoritarian Stalin made a war-winning decision(moving troops from Siberia to Stalingrad) based on the intelligence(that the Japanese would attack the US, not Siberia) he recieved from his spy in the Japanese court.