Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
Nor any democratic country, we are no pacifists. But how likely is it that the Dutch and English go to war again, or Germany and France.Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Rather a broad brush. America has been in "kinetic situations" for years now, tirelesly helping other countries by "sending the Marines". Britain isn't much better on that score.
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
It was hardly run by a dictator.
Anyway, democracy is one one of many factors that determine how well a country can fight wars. Although you listed militaries there, the democratic success theories are more concerned with the war machine in general. Lake's 1992 studies on rent-seekign for example show democracies utilise their resources more effectively for war.
If anything this supports the democratic peace idea, since the idea is not that democratic leaders are peace-loving idealists, but that public opinion constrains them, since the public tend to feel the costs of war. The fact that the US could only take covert actions in places like Nicaragua, Chile etc and not declare open war is due to the fact that it was a democracy.Rather a broad brush. America has been in "kinetic situations" for years now, tirelesly helping other countries by "sending the Marines". Britain isn't much better on that score.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
When a dictator fights a dictator, one of them will of course win.The armies of the 20th Centuary were democratic. Is this a long term trend or a blip?
New Model Army: run by a dictator, but efficient
Napoleon: An autocratic Emperor, but won battles
Roman Empire: worked under both a republic and an Emperor; Byzantine empire was there for hundreds more years
Japanese armies: under a Monarchy. Yes, they lost WW2, but they won most things before that and I don't think being a democracy suddenly makes one beat America.
Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, Peter the Great...
Vietnamese: Communist
Cambodian: Communist
Red Army (post revolution): Communist
So, loads of autocratic regimes have been whipping all foes before them for hundreds of years.
I fail to see how stating the obvious is an argument though.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
Don't get too carried away. Being a democracy doesn't make you invincible, you can't take the democratic success idea to be an absolute rule. The form of government is a moderately-important factor when weighed up against other things in determining how a war will come out. Most studies show democracy to be the best form in this respect, although there is also a tendency for the most authoritarian regimes to do pretty well, so the consolidation of the government in question has also got a lot to do with things.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
The humble points remains the same: for a democracy to survive, it needs to adhere to democratic principles.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
And an equally good way for democracies to end is to be truly democratic (with the voters having views on everything).
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
I'm having opinions on everything, and I don't see Norway ending anytime soon.And an equally good way for democracies to end is to be truly democratic (with the voters having views on everything).
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
I am sure that people in China and North Korea have opinions... I rather fail to see the relevance of it.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
You know we mean liberal democracy when we talk about democracy nowadays. Protection of human rights and the separation of powers are IMO much more important than the 51%+ say how things go aspect.And an equally good way for democracies to end is to be truly democratic (with the voters having views on everything).
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
Protection of human rights can itself undermine democracy, as it precludes any effective method of dealing with some individuals.
Pacifism theoretically is great until someone plays by different rules.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
I cannot think of any such examples, although that's maybe because my take on rights is that you lose them when you fail to respect them.
The whole democratic peace idea is based on realist principles you know...
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
I completely agree with the concept that rights can be lost (and if appropriate, regained), and this invalidates my argument.
The 1930's show that defence is not always based on realism.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
I just wanna interject here and offer a slightly different viewpoint.
-Who won the American revolution? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who won WW1? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who won WW2? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who won the cold war? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who's winning the wars in the middle east? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
-Who won both gulf wars? Those with bigger production capabilities/more money
Last edited by Sarmatian; 11-26-2010 at 11:47.
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
Who won the Afghan war in the 1990ies?
Who won the Vietnam war?
Who won the Korean war?
Who won the War on Drugs?
Who won the invasion of Cuba?
Who won the cuban revolution?
Who won the french revolution?
Who won the Greek/Persian war?
Who won the War on Terror?
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
Yeah, WWII is not the best example, since something like 85% of the Wehrmacht was deployed fighting the non-democratic USSR on the Eastern Front. Although I read somewhere else around 70% of the German war effort more generally (as opposed to manpower) was for the Western Front.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
I take this as support for my position...
Except for the first one, the american revolutionaries certainly did not have a bigger production capability or more money than the British Empire.
Who won the Afghan war in the 1990ies? - one dictatorship defeated another dictatorship
Who won the Vietnam war? - irregular war, when I say "war" I'm referring to regular wars, occupying a country is something democracies have shown themselves to be poor at
Who won the Korean war? - noone?
Who won the War on Drugs? - this isn't a "war"
Who won the invasion of Cuba? - the dictatorship won, mostly because the democracy(US) withdrew its support at the critical moment. an invasion with the full backing of the US army would have had a completely different outcome.
Who won the cuban revolution? - the revolutionaries defeated a dictatorship
Who won the french revolution? - yes, who did really win the french revolution? I'll let Louis answer that one... But at any rate, there was at least one dictator on both sides
Who won the Greek/Persian war? - dictator vs. dictator
Who won the War on Terror? - irregular and ongoing
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
If each time the reaction when such news comes out has to be "but not all muslims are like that", then you are at least giving the impression of being an apologist. Sure, you didn't say that you agree with children getting this kind of "education", but it wouldn't hurt if you would first start with explicity condemning this and then ask people to be careful not to think all muslims are like that.
Maybe it's not your intention, but this is exactly the kind of reaction I'm getting enough of. It comes accros as apologising, trying to divert attention away from this unacceptable event and making people scared to be labeled as "racist muslim haters" when they're rightfully disgusted by something as children being indoctrinated to hate non-muslims.
In fact, by constantly addressing this kind of issues like this, people will start becoming racist muslim haters for real.
I don't know if I explained myself well. It's a subtle mechanism that comes accross as a waving finger and a "don't you dare say something negative about Islam or you're a racist".
Being disgusted by this news about indoctrination of children is not the same as labelling all muslims as evil. In fact, it is in the best interests of the muslims to not tolerate this.
Just like Catholic pedophile priests should be locked up and the key thrown away, these people indoctrinating those children to start hating non-muslims should be locked up as well. Period, end of story. And no unnecessary drama over it.
Doing the ""people should not use this to label all muslims as evil and blahblahblah" and in the meanwhile ignoring the issue at hand"- thingy is doing a disservice to exactly the majority of muslims you are trying to defend.
I also fail to see the relevance of this or that interpretation of Islam. The issue is: children are being indoctrinated to hate people of different religions. That's what we are talking about. You may find the fact that this particular case of indoctrination is organised by some Islamic group inconvenient, but that's how it is. Now, instead of going defensive and "defend Islam against teh evil racists", it would be better to open your eyes and see what is happening. Then act on it.
EDIT: I also fail to see the relevance for this thread to know who won which war. I thought history was for the Monastery.
Last edited by Andres; 11-26-2010 at 15:12.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
So when discussing nazi's or whatever, I need to first state that I'm not a nazi or sympathize with them?
Shouldn't it be obvious that I don't associate with nazism even though I'm white? And shouldn't it be obvious that a muslim isn't an extremist or symathize with extremists?
Should all catholics be required to start their statements with "I don't condone child abuse, but [...]"?
Last edited by HoreTore; 11-26-2010 at 15:16.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
That's not what I said. Don't pretend that you're obtuse.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
So, muslims are required to state that they do not sympathize with extremism, while I don't need to state that I don't sympathize with nazism?
As a leftie, do I need to state that I don't agree with Gulag? Or Kim Jung-Il? Or the cultural revolution? The moscow trials? Pol pot? As a white european, do I need to state that I don't agree with slavery or imperialism?
Or does this just apply to scary brown people?
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
No, HoreTore, that's still not what I said and I think you know it pretty well.
I won't play along in these kind of games, so I'm going to limit myself to : read my post again.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
So, only muslims or those defending some muslims need to make it clear that they do not sympathize with extremist practices.No, HoreTore, that's still not what I said and I think you know it pretty well.
I won't play along in these kind of games, so I'm going to limit myself to : read my post again.
Just checkin'.....
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
No, HoreTore, that's also not what I said.
I was expressing how I dislike the technique of responding to this kind of news in a "not all muslims are like that", in the meanwhile ignoring the issue at hand and then let the debate boil down to something about tolerance and a X vs. Y thread.
Why can't we talk about if we are willing to accept the indoctrination of children by adults to hate people of other relgions in our modern society? You talk about debate and all that, but in the meanwhile, these children's minds will be indoctrinated and it will be very difficult to "debate" that out of them when they're grown-ups. Adults can do what they want in their free time with other consenting adults, be it SM or letting yourself be indoctrinated by the friendly neighbourhood terrorist. The OP speaks of children of 6; those are not adults.
In fact, I would go as far as calling this kind of indoctrination of 6 year old children to hate other people because of their religion (or lack thereof) child abuse. And child abusers should be locked up. Not debated.
The fact that the child abusers happen to be Muslims is irrelevant. Even trying to do something that resemblings something that looks like trying to label the persons mentioning this child abuse as muslim haters, is in pretty bad taste.
We don't want to lock up pedophile priests because they are Cahtolics, we want to lock them up because they are pedo's. Idem dito with child abusres who happen to be muslim. No need to go all "but not all muslims are like that!" here. As I said, that's very bad taste and very misplaced.
Last edited by Andres; 11-26-2010 at 15:52.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
But it does make me interested in why you need it from muslims, specifically...
I've been here for 5 years now, and spent waaaaay too many hours here, and I have yet to see anything even remotely close to support of extremist islamist views. I have, however, seen the following:
-Support for "fire and brimstone"-christianity along the lines of "gays should be whacked"(even though Navaros might've been a troll)
-Several statements that 11-year old incest victims should be convicted of murder if they choose abortion
-Statements that the "wehrmacht wasn't all that bad and besides they tried to rescue the world from filthy commies"
-Statements that Screbrenica is a lie/way overblown
-That it's fair game to torture the enemies of the west
-etc etc etc
And yet, you need clarification on whether a particular orgah has views nobody on these forums have ever held.... Makes me very interested indeed.
Do you dislike statements like "not all catholic priests are like that"?
Last edited by HoreTore; 11-26-2010 at 15:50.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
When people feel the need to start about christianity when you criticise islam you usually know enough; apoligist. It's like the gutmensch that solemny declares he condems violence on both sides, they never do that 'yes but Israel'
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
There is a fine difference between, a) identifying something as, say 'Saudi cultural imperialism' or 'Wahabist extremism', to refine the subject. And, b) the protest that 'not all Muslims are evil'. The latter serves a purpose as a protest against unfounded generalisation. The former is usually said to further debate. Sadly, both closely resemble each other, and between writer and reader and assumptions of what the other intents there can develop a world of miscommunication.
One does not always need to assume evil intention, or racist undertones. For example, even though I have now two threads running in the BR about evil Muslims, does not mean I hate them. For example, I am looking at a Muslim right now, my colleague, just in the next room. I don't think of him as an Untermensch, a subhuman, an inferior. That would be nazistic, well below me. Instead I consider him a human of flesh and blood, put on this earth by Jesus Christ to bring me coffee and elsewise serve his white master.
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
It was not necessarily directed at alh_p in se. Meh, keep refusing to understand what I tried to say, if that makes you happy.
When said in the context of a thread about pedophiles who happen to be Catholic priests: yes.
Just like I dislike the statement "Not all muslims are like that" in a thread about child abusers who happen to be muslim.
Context. Time and place for everything.
Last edited by Andres; 11-26-2010 at 16:01.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
I think we all know it's not all Muslims, and it's just not most Muslims either. I think the main problem is the thought whether Muslims do or do not regard extremists as Muslim or not. I think that's the main issue here. We're already aware that it is a (tiny) minority of Muslims commiting terrorist acts. It's just about how the other Muslims perceive them. And due to political inclinations we have, we either think that, 1) the mainstay of Muslims do not respect, condemn or publicly state their disapproval of Muslims commiting terrorist acts 2) the mainstay of Muslims doesn't care about Muslims commiting terrorist acts or 3) the mainstay of Muslims (silently) agree with Muslims commiting terrorist acts.
This space intentionally left blank.
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
These schools don't call for terrorism, they are much more dangerous than that, it's voluntary apartheid, parallel society's with different laws. That is unacceptable.
Re: This Week's Evil Islam Thread
I don't care if religious guy A does or does not think Mister B holds the same religion as him or not.
What I do care about is that this kind of child abuse stops.
It's pretty distasteful to reduce this matter to a debate about muslims and the different interpretations of their religion. I don't care about what theological arguments one whishes to talk about to decide if a Catholic pedophile priest is a true Catholic or not; I want the damned pervert behind bars. Your religion is completely and utterly irrelevant here and to think that it's all about your religion is a form of arrogance.
This is child abuse and child abusers must be arrested and locked up.
Last edited by Andres; 11-26-2010 at 16:21.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks