This Week's Evil Islam Thread

[Andres]

But it does make me interested in why you need it from muslims, specifically...

I've been here for 5 years now, and spent waaaaay too many hours here, and I have yet to see anything even remotely close to support of extremist islamist views. I have, however, seen the following:

-Support for "fire and brimstone"-christianity along the lines of "gays should be whacked"(even though Navaros might've been a troll)
-Several statements that 11-year old incest victims should be convicted of murder if they choose abortion
-Statements that the "wehrmacht wasn't all that bad and besides they tried to rescue the world from filthy commies"
-Statements that Screbrenica is a lie/way overblown
-That it's fair game to torture the enemies of the west
-etc etc etc

And yet, you need clarification on whether a particular orgah has views nobody on these forums have ever held.... Makes me very interested indeed.

It was not necessarily directed at alh_p in se. Meh, keep refusing to understand what I tried to say, if that makes you happy.

Do you dislike statements like "not all catholic priests are like that"?

When said in the context of a thread about pedophiles who happen to be Catholic priests: yes.

Just like I dislike the statement "Not all muslims are like that" in a thread about child abusers who happen to be muslim.

Context. Time and place for everything.

[Hax]

I think we all know it's not all Muslims, and it's just not most Muslims either. I think the main problem is the thought whether Muslims do or do not regard extremists as Muslim or not. I think that's the main issue here. We're already aware that it is a (tiny) minority of Muslims commiting terrorist acts. It's just about how the other Muslims perceive them. And due to political inclinations we have, we either think that, 1) the mainstay of Muslims do not respect, condemn or publicly state their disapproval of Muslims commiting terrorist acts 2) the mainstay of Muslims doesn't care about Muslims commiting terrorist acts or 3) the mainstay of Muslims (silently) agree with Muslims commiting terrorist acts.

[Fragony]

I think we all know it's not all Muslims, and it's just not most Muslims either. I think the main problem is the thought whether Muslims do or do not regard extremists as Muslim or not. I think that's the main issue here. We're already aware that it is a (tiny) minority of Muslims commiting terrorist acts. It's just about how the other Muslims perceive them. And due to political inclinations we have, we either think that, 1) the mainstay of Muslims do not respect, condemn or publicly state their disapproval of Muslims commiting terrorist acts 2) the mainstay of Muslims doesn't care about Muslims commiting terrorist acts or 3) the mainstay of Muslims (silently) agree with Muslims commiting terrorist acts.

These schools don't call for terrorism, they are much more dangerous than that, it's voluntary apartheid, parallel society's with different laws. That is unacceptable.

[Andres]

I think we all know it's not all Muslims, and it's just not most Muslims either. I think the main problem is the thought whether Muslims do or do not regard extremists as Muslim or not. I think that's the main issue here. We're already aware that it is a (tiny) minority of Muslims commiting terrorist acts. It's just about how the other Muslims perceive them. And due to political inclinations we have, we either think that, 1) the mainstay of Muslims do not respect, condemn or publicly state their disapproval of Muslims commiting terrorist acts 2) the mainstay of Muslims doesn't care about Muslims commiting terrorist acts or 3) the mainstay of Muslims (silently) agree with Muslims commiting terrorist acts.

I don't care if religious guy A does or does not think Mister B holds the same religion as him or not.

What I do care about is that this kind of child abuse stops.

It's pretty distasteful to reduce this matter to a debate about muslims and the different interpretations of their religion. I don't care about what theological arguments one whishes to talk about to decide if a Catholic pedophile priest is a true Catholic or not; I want the damned pervert behind bars. Your religion is completely and utterly irrelevant here and to think that it's all about your religion is a form of arrogance.

This is child abuse and child abusers must be arrested and locked up.

[Hax]

I wasn't commenting on the situation (for it doesn't warrant any comments, these people should be locked up) but on discussions about Islam in general. As Louis pointed out, the argument of "not all Muslims are like this" can pretty much kill any form of discussion.

This is child abuse and child abusers must be arrested and locked up.

Exactly.

[Fragony]

I wasn't commenting on the situation (for it doesn't warrant any comments, these people should be locked up) but on discussions about Islam in general. As Louis pointed out, the argument of "not all Muslims are like this" can pretty much kill any form of discussion.

Well anyone sane understands that most muslims only care about what's for dinner and the bills. But there is this odd need to defend them anyway, there is no need to put things in perspective, it's the one who tries to do so that's holding the broad brush, I know muslims aren't evil.

[Andres]

Well anyone sane understands that most muslims only care about what's for dinner and the bills. But there is this odd need to defend them anyway, there is no need to put things in perspective, it's the one who tries to do so that's holding the broad brush, I know muslims aren't evil.

Indeed.

[HoreTore]

I don't care if religious guy A does or does not think Mister B holds the same religion as him or not.

What I do care about is that this kind of child abuse stops.

It's pretty distasteful to reduce this matter to a debate about muslims and the different interpretations of their religion. I don't care about what theological arguments one whishes to talk about to decide if a Catholic pedophile priest is a true Catholic or not; I want the damned pervert behind bars. Your religion is completely and utterly irrelevant here and to think that it's all about your religion is a form of arrogance.

This is child abuse and child abusers must be arrested and locked up.

I don't buy it. I'd consider telling a gay 12-year old that all gays go to hell(phsychological damage) or " country x deserves to be nuked"(racist indoctrination) child abuse, but I don't see locking up his parents a reasonable or good way of solving that poblem.

And don't pretend like it's the only solution to it, and that all other proposals is just apologizing or agreement. This is an after-school thing, we should have a school system good enough that young people will question it. I was taught by my school that there was a god in heaven, but I've never believed that, have I?

The second problem is that this is just an organized way of handing down a system of traditions, beliefs and values from one generation to another. The school is just a tool, taking that away will change nothing, parents are still free to instill the values taught by this school in their children, whatever you may think of that is quite irrelevant. You won't even know that it is happening(by contrast, a school like this gets the problem out in the open, so we are aware of it and can debate and counter it).

The end result is that another solution is needed, one that is about debate and education, not jails. Because the law simply can't touch a parent who wants to teach their offspring that killing gay people is fine.

Bottom line is that I just don't see limiting freedom of speech as a solution, even calls for violence.

[Andres]

I don't buy it. I'd consider telling a gay 12-year old that all gays go to hell(phsychological damage) or "shitty country x deserves to be nuked"(racist indoctrination) child abuse, but I don't see locking up his parents a reasonable or good way of solving that poblem.

And don't pretend like it's the only solution to it, and that all other proposals is just apologizing or agreement. This is an after-school thing, we should have a school system good enough that young people will question it. I was taught by my school that there was a god in heaven, but I've never believed that, have I?

The second problem is that this is just an organized way of handing down a system of traditions, beliefs and values from one generation to another. The school is just a tool, taking that away will change nothing, parents are still free to instill the values taught by this school in their children, whatever you may think of that is quite irrelevant. You won't even know that it is happening(by contrast, a school like this gets the problem out in the open, so we are aware of it and can debate and counter it).

The end result is that another solution is needed, one that is about debate and education, not jails. Because the law simply can't touch a parent who wants to teach their offspring that killing gay people is fine.

Bottom line is that I just don't see limiting freedom of speech as a solution, even calls for violence.

Agree and disagree.

I agree that the state should not intervene with how parents decide to raise their child. However, in this case, we're talking about massively organised indoctrination of children (5000 students? 6 year olds? That's not a case of daddy saying "all gays should go to hell" in the presence of his son). It's a completely different story than parents learning their kids value X or idiocy Y.

I don't necessarily want to lock up the parents, but I wouldn't mind seeing those teachers and those organising this stuff being locked up.

Imho, this whole thing has absolutely nothing to do with "freedom of speech" or "freedom of religion", but I assume you and I will disagree on that.

[HoreTore]

but I wouldn't mind seeing those teachers and those organising this stuff being locked up.

Just what will that accomplish?

And do note that it's not the teachers who demand the children attend the schools, it's the parents who send them there to ease their burden, just like we all do. The parents send them there to learn what the parents want them to learn. The children will still learn the same values, your action will just have the parents teach them.

[rory_20_uk]

Hence why the whole lot need to be deported where they can find a corner of the globe that encourages their beliefs and practices. Abscesses need to be incised and drained.

[Andres]

Just what will that accomplish?

And do note that it's not the teachers who demand the children attend the schools, it's the parents who send them there to ease their burden, just like we all do. The parents send them there to learn what the parents want them to learn. The children will still learn the same values, your action will just have the parents teach them.

What it will accomplish? Dismantling this whole organisation. Some of those parents might still teach their children that crap, but I would be surprised if all of them would do so. The scary part is the organised mass indoctrination of children to hate (and kill?) people of other religions aka organised child abuse. Sure, dad and mom may still abuse their own child themselves; doesn't mean that we shouldn't stop the known organised mass indoctrination to hate and kill.

[Fragony]

Just what will that accomplish?

And do note that it's not the teachers who demand the children attend the schools, it's the parents who send them there to ease their burden, just like we all do. The parents send them there to learn what the parents want them to learn. The children will still learn the same values, your action will just have the parents teach them.

You are less likely to rebel against religious schools than your parents, much more social control as it's 'official'. These schools are a problem, they teach what goes against our values as an official institution, elevating muslim law over secular law. We would be nuts to allow that, this goes beyond relgion as a personal thing. But it's indeed also simply child-abuse.

Little addition, it's the same social control that forces parents to put their children on these schools, the 'uncles' will come at your door asking you why they aren't, refusing forget it, who's going to help you.

[Sarmatian]

Yeah, WWII is not the best example, since something like 85% of the Wehrmacht was deployed fighting the non-democratic USSR on the Eastern Front. Although I read somewhere else around 70% of the German war effort more generally (as opposed to manpower) was for the Western Front.

Depends how you define "war effort". Luftwaffe was present more on the eastern front in the beginning, later more on the western and practically entire Kriegsmarine was on the western front all the time. Western front as in fighting the western allies. Even knowing that, most of the German war effort supported fight in the east so I really don't think 70% was used to fight western allies.

I take this as support for my position...

Except for the first one, the american revolutionaries certainly did not have a bigger production capability or more money than the British Empire.

Sorry, I just glanced before replying and thought you meant ACW, not American revolution. Yeah, you're right, but in that case there were many other factors at play (French intervention, war weariness in Britain etc...)