This Week's Evil Islam Thread

[Hax]

I wasn't commenting on the situation (for it doesn't warrant any comments, these people should be locked up) but on discussions about Islam in general. As Louis pointed out, the argument of "not all Muslims are like this" can pretty much kill any form of discussion.

This is child abuse and child abusers must be arrested and locked up.

Exactly.

[HoreTore]

I don't care if religious guy A does or does not think Mister B holds the same religion as him or not.

What I do care about is that this kind of child abuse stops.

It's pretty distasteful to reduce this matter to a debate about muslims and the different interpretations of their religion. I don't care about what theological arguments one whishes to talk about to decide if a Catholic pedophile priest is a true Catholic or not; I want the damned pervert behind bars. Your religion is completely and utterly irrelevant here and to think that it's all about your religion is a form of arrogance.

This is child abuse and child abusers must be arrested and locked up.

I don't buy it. I'd consider telling a gay 12-year old that all gays go to hell(phsychological damage) or " country x deserves to be nuked"(racist indoctrination) child abuse, but I don't see locking up his parents a reasonable or good way of solving that poblem.

And don't pretend like it's the only solution to it, and that all other proposals is just apologizing or agreement. This is an after-school thing, we should have a school system good enough that young people will question it. I was taught by my school that there was a god in heaven, but I've never believed that, have I?

The second problem is that this is just an organized way of handing down a system of traditions, beliefs and values from one generation to another. The school is just a tool, taking that away will change nothing, parents are still free to instill the values taught by this school in their children, whatever you may think of that is quite irrelevant. You won't even know that it is happening(by contrast, a school like this gets the problem out in the open, so we are aware of it and can debate and counter it).

The end result is that another solution is needed, one that is about debate and education, not jails. Because the law simply can't touch a parent who wants to teach their offspring that killing gay people is fine.

Bottom line is that I just don't see limiting freedom of speech as a solution, even calls for violence.

[Fragony]

I wasn't commenting on the situation (for it doesn't warrant any comments, these people should be locked up) but on discussions about Islam in general. As Louis pointed out, the argument of "not all Muslims are like this" can pretty much kill any form of discussion.

Well anyone sane understands that most muslims only care about what's for dinner and the bills. But there is this odd need to defend them anyway, there is no need to put things in perspective, it's the one who tries to do so that's holding the broad brush, I know muslims aren't evil.

[Andres]

I don't buy it. I'd consider telling a gay 12-year old that all gays go to hell(phsychological damage) or "shitty country x deserves to be nuked"(racist indoctrination) child abuse, but I don't see locking up his parents a reasonable or good way of solving that poblem.

And don't pretend like it's the only solution to it, and that all other proposals is just apologizing or agreement. This is an after-school thing, we should have a school system good enough that young people will question it. I was taught by my school that there was a god in heaven, but I've never believed that, have I?

The second problem is that this is just an organized way of handing down a system of traditions, beliefs and values from one generation to another. The school is just a tool, taking that away will change nothing, parents are still free to instill the values taught by this school in their children, whatever you may think of that is quite irrelevant. You won't even know that it is happening(by contrast, a school like this gets the problem out in the open, so we are aware of it and can debate and counter it).

The end result is that another solution is needed, one that is about debate and education, not jails. Because the law simply can't touch a parent who wants to teach their offspring that killing gay people is fine.

Bottom line is that I just don't see limiting freedom of speech as a solution, even calls for violence.

Agree and disagree.

I agree that the state should not intervene with how parents decide to raise their child. However, in this case, we're talking about massively organised indoctrination of children (5000 students? 6 year olds? That's not a case of daddy saying "all gays should go to hell" in the presence of his son). It's a completely different story than parents learning their kids value X or idiocy Y.

I don't necessarily want to lock up the parents, but I wouldn't mind seeing those teachers and those organising this stuff being locked up.

Imho, this whole thing has absolutely nothing to do with "freedom of speech" or "freedom of religion", but I assume you and I will disagree on that.

[Andres]

Well anyone sane understands that most muslims only care about what's for dinner and the bills. But there is this odd need to defend them anyway, there is no need to put things in perspective, it's the one who tries to do so that's holding the broad brush, I know muslims aren't evil.

Indeed.

[HoreTore]

but I wouldn't mind seeing those teachers and those organising this stuff being locked up.

Just what will that accomplish?

And do note that it's not the teachers who demand the children attend the schools, it's the parents who send them there to ease their burden, just like we all do. The parents send them there to learn what the parents want them to learn. The children will still learn the same values, your action will just have the parents teach them.

[rory_20_uk]

Hence why the whole lot need to be deported where they can find a corner of the globe that encourages their beliefs and practices. Abscesses need to be incised and drained.

[Andres]

Just what will that accomplish?

And do note that it's not the teachers who demand the children attend the schools, it's the parents who send them there to ease their burden, just like we all do. The parents send them there to learn what the parents want them to learn. The children will still learn the same values, your action will just have the parents teach them.

What it will accomplish? Dismantling this whole organisation. Some of those parents might still teach their children that crap, but I would be surprised if all of them would do so. The scary part is the organised mass indoctrination of children to hate (and kill?) people of other religions aka organised child abuse. Sure, dad and mom may still abuse their own child themselves; doesn't mean that we shouldn't stop the known organised mass indoctrination to hate and kill.

[Fragony]

Just what will that accomplish?

And do note that it's not the teachers who demand the children attend the schools, it's the parents who send them there to ease their burden, just like we all do. The parents send them there to learn what the parents want them to learn. The children will still learn the same values, your action will just have the parents teach them.

You are less likely to rebel against religious schools than your parents, much more social control as it's 'official'. These schools are a problem, they teach what goes against our values as an official institution, elevating muslim law over secular law. We would be nuts to allow that, this goes beyond relgion as a personal thing. But it's indeed also simply child-abuse.

Little addition, it's the same social control that forces parents to put their children on these schools, the 'uncles' will come at your door asking you why they aren't, refusing forget it, who's going to help you.

[Andres]

Hence why the whole lot need to be deported where they can find a corner of the globe that encourages their beliefs and practices. Abscesses need to be incised and drained.

We don't do deportations in civilised 21st century countries anymore.

Besides, basically, you will be deporting people for behaving like idiots. If we're going to have do deport everybody who behaves like an idiot, there won't be many people left

[al Roumi]

If each time the reaction when such news comes out has to be "but not all muslims are like that", then you are at least giving the impression of being an apologist. Sure, you didn't say that you agree with children getting this kind of "education", but it wouldn't hurt if you would first start with explicity condemning this and then ask people to be careful not to think all muslims are like that.

Maybe it's not your intention, but this is exactly the kind of reaction I'm getting enough of. It comes accros as apologising, trying to divert attention away from this unacceptable event and making people scared to be labeled as "racist muslim haters" when they're rightfully disgusted by something as children being indoctrinated to hate non-muslims.

Andres, for what it's worth, this thread starts on page one -as did the train of my comments:

This is clearly unacceptable.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I admit my first thought was "lets keep this in perpective", but 5000 students is a lot of people to poison with this rot. My google fu has failed me in finding (recent) statistics on independant faith schools in Britain. It would be interesting to know how big a chunk of the independant Islamic sector this represents. I also know bugger-all about the governance of independant schools, or what powers there are to limit this kind of hideous curriculum.

Re the Saudis, I can quite imagine that this does have nothing to do with the Saudi government, it's most likely to be some sort of charity. Plus, the Saudis govt is really only bothered about what happens at home and not so much about the country's non-petroleum based exports.

I am guilty of often jumping in on the defensive, but I feel that has a lot to do with the starting post in many of the threads here, not least the standard media perceptions (which usually initiate a debate) and their focus on the fruity fringe issues.

Your "annoyance with appologists" is concerning, but I can't help but feel that the main problems with debate on Islam are that the debate itself revolves around the "extreme" salients and that there is a massive lack of understanding all round.

[HoreTore]

What it will accomplish? Dismantling this whole organisation. Some of those parents might still teach their children that crap, but I would be surprised if all of them would do so. The scary part is the organised mass indoctrination of children to hate (and kill?) people of other religions aka organised child abuse. Sure, dad and mom may still abuse their own child themselves; doesn't mean that we shouldn't stop the known organised mass indoctrination to hate and kill.

Would be true if it was the institution that tried to "indoctrinate" the children. Won't have any effect at all if the parents hold those values, and wish to pass them on to the next generation.

But I believe we've reached the point where both our positions are made, were we find the other position rational and we'll just have to agree to disagree, as our conflict is one of different thoughts of life in general, not this specific issue.

You are less likely to rebel against religious schools than your parents, much more social control as it's 'official'. These schools are a problem, they teach what goes against our values as an official institution, elevating muslim law over secular law. We would be nuts to allow that, this goes beyond relgion as a personal thing. But it's indeed also simply child-abuse.

No, this is not an official institution. This is an after-school thing, aka it is done in the childrens free time. Kinda like a sunday school.

[Fragony]

Check my edit

[rory_20_uk]

I agree with your points. But to use the example of Catholic Paedophile Priests, most Catholics and eventually the Church itself came out against them - hence they are marginalised by their own.

The general perception - and I am sure the Media is partly responsible for this - is that most Moderate Muslims remain silent in speaking out against this which would allow the majority to marginalise these individuals. Many might feel that there is no need to do so as clearly this is the work of fringe nutters, but as in exams thinking that is not displayed is not often assumed.

Although there is a lack of understanding, there is none required on this particular issue: they are wrong and should be punished / removed from the UK. These two issues should not be linked, as invariably one gets unfairly tainted with the other.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I wouldn't call this child abuse, they aren't in any way directly harming the children.

Also, are they making any direct calls for violence? Maybe it's just me but I want to live in a world where people are allowed to hate other people. Stay out of my head please.

And sure, people will say, stay out of these childrens' heads. But they are minors, parents and institutions have a right to teach them. I bet a few hundred years ago they could have argued it is child abuse to make a child believe they live in a godless universe.

If you won't support free speech all the time then don't get upset when you find yourself deprived of it.

[Fragony]

I wouldn't call this child abuse, they aren't in any way directly harming the children.

Also, are they making any direct calls for violence? Maybe it's just me but I want to live in a world where people are allowed to hate other people. Stay out of my head please.

And sure, people will say, stay out of these childrens' heads. But they are minors, parents and institutions have a right to teach them. I bet a few hundred years ago they could have argued it is child abuse to make a child believe they live in a godless universe.

If you won't support free speech all the time then don't get upset when you find yourself deprived of it.

There's a line, free speech shouldn't endanger others, limits the freedom of the hated, makes no sense no?

[Rhyfelwyr]

There's a line, free speech shouldn't endanger others, limits the freedom of the hated, makes no sense no?

But were there direct calls for violence? That's where the line usually is, no reason why it shouldn't be in this case.

[Fragony]

But were there direct calls for violence? That's where the line usually is, no reason why it shouldn't be in this case.

Besides that for example gays have to burn in this life as well?

[HoreTore]

Besides that for example gays have to burn in this life as well?

What's the difference in saying "that guy should be killed" and "that guys country should be nuked"?

[Sarmatian]

Yeah, WWII is not the best example, since something like 85% of the Wehrmacht was deployed fighting the non-democratic USSR on the Eastern Front. Although I read somewhere else around 70% of the German war effort more generally (as opposed to manpower) was for the Western Front.

Depends how you define "war effort". Luftwaffe was present more on the eastern front in the beginning, later more on the western and practically entire Kriegsmarine was on the western front all the time. Western front as in fighting the western allies. Even knowing that, most of the German war effort supported fight in the east so I really don't think 70% was used to fight western allies.

I take this as support for my position...

Except for the first one, the american revolutionaries certainly did not have a bigger production capability or more money than the British Empire.

Sorry, I just glanced before replying and thought you meant ACW, not American revolution. Yeah, you're right, but in that case there were many other factors at play (French intervention, war weariness in Britain etc...)

[Rhyfelwyr]

Besides that for example gays have to burn in this life as well?

Does it call for these children to do and lynch them themselves? Or does it simply take a 'moral' stance in saying this is what the law ought to do? We had a couple of debates in school on whether or not we should have the death penalty. That goes against what we now deem to be human rights (here in Euroland at least), so should we all have been banned from talking about such things/deported?

[Fragony]

What's the difference in saying "that guy should be killed" and "that guys country should be nuked"?

One is taught the other isn't

[Beskar]

What's the difference in saying "that guy should be killed" and "that guys country should be nuked"?

Because it is only one person who is not innocent.

The other represents millions of innocents dying, due to the influence of one man, who would not be dying with them.

[PanzerJaeger]

An evil Islam thread? I like this idea... kind of a one-stop-shop for all the awful things going on in the Islamic world instead of countless threads every week. This ought to be stickied as I don't see it running short on content any time soon.

Feds: Somali-born teen plotted car-bombing in Ore.

PORTLAND, Ore. – Undercover agents in a sting operation arrested a Somali-born teenager just as he tried blowing up a van full of what he believed were explosives at a crowded Christmas tree lighting ceremony in Portland, federal authorities said.

The bomb was a fake supplied by the agents and the public was never in danger, authorities said.

Mohamed Osman Mohamud, 19, was arrested at 5:40 p.m. Friday just after he dialed a cell phone that he thought would set off the blast but instead brought federal agents and police swooping down on him.

Yelling "Allahu Akbar!" — Arabic for "God is great!" — Mohamud tried to kick agents and police after he was taken into custody, according to prosecutors.

Yeah, WWII is not the best example, since something like 85% of the Wehrmacht was deployed fighting the non-democratic USSR on the Eastern Front. Although I read somewhere else around 70% of the German war effort more generally (as opposed to manpower) was for the Western Front.

This is incorrect unless it refers to two very specific periods of the war - the Battle of France (when the USSR was a German Ally) or the Ardennes Offensive - and in the case of the latter it is still a stretch.

[Hax]

Anti Muslim Brotherhood Posters Seen In Its Strongholds

Posters attacking the Muslim Brotherhood and describing them as violent were seen displayed in some governorates only hours before Sunday’s parliamentary elections, eyewitnesses said.
Most of these posters were seen in Alexandria, Suez, and Ismailia, where the Brotherhood is particularly active.
In Alexandria's Ramleh constituency, posters read: "Remember their black history" and "No to the Brotherhood, they preach blind compliance or expulsion". The posters carried the signature "Youth Against Oppression".
In Ismailia, the birthplace of the Brotherhood and one of its current strongholds, the same posters were distributed in the larger constituencies.
In Suez, the same posters were put up right under the Brotherhood's publicity posters.
The posters were predominantly black in color and displayed next to the publicity posters of the Brotherhood and the ruling National Democratic Party (NDP).
The NDP on Thursday launched a wide-scale publicity campaign accusing the Brotherhood of violating the constitution and working to transform Egypt into a religious state.
The campaign also comes in the wake of an announcement by the NDP that it has filed a complaint with the Attorney General Office, in a step that could lead to Brotherhood candidates’ being cancelled after they are voted into parliament.
The current Brotherhood candidate for the Ramleh constituency, Sobhy Saleh, meanwhile, declined to accuse any one entity of putting up those posters.
"I haven't seen them and they are of no concern to me," he said. "This in not an election. This is some sad game and these are black days for the Egyptian people."
The NDP’s secretary in Alexandria, Saeed al-Daqqaq, said the NDP has nothing to do with the posters in question.
Translated from the Arabic Edition.

[Fragony]

They are no longer all that violent but nice, very nice, don't mind being a hypocrite when it concerns these peaches

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Missed the point entirely, bro.

Banning private schools altogether is, of course, the only possible way forward. This is far from the only instance of "loony private school"-syndrome, even if it is more graphic than other cases. Stop 'em altogether, they have nothing to offer society.

Banning all public schools would be equally effective. Require ALL schooling to be private. Have your Islamist schools and a BNP academy as well (though staffing it might leave the rest of the BNP bereft of literati).

[HoreTore]

Banning all public schools would be equally effective. Require ALL schooling to be private. Have your Islamist schools and a BNP academy as well (though staffing it might leave the rest of the BNP bereft of literati).

Uhm, no.... Making all schools private will allow schools like these, not remove them, while making all schools public will remove them... Not quite sure what you're onto here...

And in any case, this isn't a school as such, and this point is now irrelevant to this particular discussion.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Or Freedom of Religion be damned and just banned these Muslims schools outright?

[Fragony]

Or Freedom of Religion be damned and just banned these Muslims schools outright?

That would be kinda be destroying our own values, muslims can have islamic schools and mosques no problem, the problem is and will always be the islamphilae of the multiculti's who will never accept that there might be even a hint of a problem, even the mere suggestion upsets their inner mother, they get vicious shreek and claw when all ducklings don't march in a straight line. A dying breed but oh so creepy.