This Week's Evil Islam Thread

[Fragony]

All religions are the same.

No that's bull, islam is both a stateform (well not really a state, but a political ideoligy) and a religion. Christianity is set in society, islam dictates society. Not a particular fan of either mind you, all religions are pretty much equal in the amount of patience I have for the religious, being somewhat less patient with muslims comes naturally cause they whine more.

[rory_20_uk]

Christianity doesn't set society, but it used to and it wasn't a power that was given up easily. Islam is more entrenched at the moment.

Muslims complain about being discriminated on the West. There was one on TV last night stating this. He was dressed in a cap, a long beard and wore robes. Of course the fact he's not bothered to integrate at all is not a factor of the discrimination... The other elephant in the room is the utter lack of equality of religions in so many Islamic countries. When other religions can convert people there in the way Muslims can over here then we can have a chat. As it stands you are in deep trouble possessing a bible.

[HoreTore]

Christianity doesn't set society, but it used to and it wasn't a power that was given up easily. Islam is more entrenched at the moment.

Muslims complain about being discriminated on the West. There was one on TV last night stating this. He was dressed in a cap, a long beard and wore robes. Of course the fact he's not bothered to integrate at all is not a factor of the discrimination... The other elephant in the room is the utter lack of equality of religions in so many Islamic countries. When other religions can convert people there in the way Muslims can over here then we can have a chat. As it stands you are in deep trouble possessing a bible.

Islam isn't missionary.

[rory_20_uk]

Islam isn't missionary.

Yet there are both forced conversions as well as individuals calling for others to convert.

[HoreTore]

Yet there are both forced conversions as well as individuals calling for others to convert.

Ever had a muslim missionary knock on your door?

Me neither.

[rory_20_uk]

So... knocking on doors is the only thing that missionaries do?

I've had several with speakers / pamphlets / books on street corners. Just publicly updating believers, eh?

[Hax]

Democracy and islam can't coexist, doesn't mean we should fight islam, but the islam can't be integrated we have different take on things.

Interestingly, we have seen that Shi'ite states in the past have succeeded in modernising their society quite well. The Buwayhids (or Buyids, however you like it) nearly had a sort of proto-laïcité like state, where religion was not a matter of the state, but rather of the people. The basic tenets of Sunni Islam have some democratic elements in them as well, although that does not make them fully democratic.

Fragony, I recommend "The History of Islamic Political Thought" by professor Antony Black. It's an excellent review of numerous Islamic political concepts ranging from the early Rashidun Caliphate to the present.

[HoreTore]

So... knocking on doors is the only thing that missionaries do?

I've had several with speakers / pamphlets / books on street corners. Just publicly updating believers, eh?

Huh, never encountered that actually. Only ever seen mormons, jehovas and some random lutherans do that...

[Furunculus]

So... knocking on doors is the only thing that missionaries do?

I've had several with speakers / pamphlets / books on street corners. Just publicly updating believers, eh?

they knock on the door and give us chocolate.

shame i don't like chocolate much tho........

[Beskar]

No that's bull, islam is both a stateform (well not really a state, but a political ideoligy) and a religion. Christianity is set in society, islam dictates society. Not a particular fan of either mind you, all religions are pretty much equal in the amount of patience I have for the religious, being somewhat less patient with muslims comes naturally cause they whine more.

No it isn't. Christianity was heavily dictating society (see: Inquisition and various references) and is very much political ideology, even having a big influence today (See: American politics). So anything you say Islam does, Christainity has done, at least historically. Same for the Hindu religion and many others.

It is just the natural traits of religion, and it is not just 'Islam', it is all religions. They are all used as means of control and power.

On other notes, many muslims are as religious as catholics I know. They just went through some service as a kid, and just call themselves Muslim/Catholic for the rest of their lives. But for some reason, you attack these as well just because of the label of 'Muslim'.

It is would be more correct to be attacking "aggressive religion"which includes all the bad bits of Islam, and all the bad bits from Christian Fundamentalism as well. All your examples are not just unique within Islam, they are elsewhere as well.

I am against all aggressive religions, I don't cherry pick the 'sensationalist pick of the hour' which Islam pretty much falls under since 9/11.

[Fragony]

@Beskar, what has been done doesn't matter, what has to be done matters. Bible is written in passed pressence there is no obligation god can handle things just fine, that is totally different from the islam who sends mankind on a mission in the name of god

[Beskar]

@Beskar, what has been done doesn't matter, what has to be done matters. Bible is written in passed pressence there is no obligation god can handle things just fine, that is totally different from the islam who sends mankind on a mission in the name of god

The solution to that would be the naturalization of 'Western Liberal Democracy' into the population. So where many Christianities cherry-pick from the bible, many Muslims cherry-pick from the Koran.

[Fragony]

The solution to that would be the naturalization of 'Western Liberal Democracy' into the population. So where many Christianities cherry-pick from the bible, many Muslims cherry-pick from the Koran.

Not the same thing still, christianity is a force within a system, it isn't out to change it. Democracy and islam can't coexist, doesn't mean we should fight islam, but the islam can't be integrated we have different take on things. Let's just stay out of eachother's way.

[rory_20_uk]

Not the same thing still, christianity is a force within a system, it isn't out to change it. Democracy and islam can't coexist, doesn't mean we should fight islam, but the islam can't be integrated we have different take on things. Let's just stay out of eachother's way.

I disagree. Extreme right wing Jews for example will put religious law above all others. They can not be integrated; many Jews in Germany put secular law above religious law. They can be.

There are loads of Muslims who are integrated and we don't hear much about them due to this; in the same way Sikhs integrate by carrying either a tiny, blunt dagger or a symbol of one, not the wickedly sharp version they might have done in the last.

Christianity as pracitced in the Middle Ages could not coexist with democracy - look at Charles I in England for example with the divine right of kings. Things have moved on.

It all goes back to that countries appear to be obsessed to have multicultural societies, as opposed to multi-faith and multi-racial societies - but crucially one culture. So, abiding by secular laws foremost for example, and tolerating others should be accepted as normal behaviour by all. By pretending that every culture will somehow get along is unhelpful to say the least.

[al Roumi]

Not the same thing still, christianity is a force within a system, it isn't out to change it. Democracy and islam can't coexist, doesn't mean we should fight islam, but the islam can't be integrated we have different take on things. Let's just stay out of eachother's way.

Yes and no.

Yes, in the sense that some Islamists (i.e. Muslims who think Islam should play a central role in politics) see democracy as a foreign (western) construct, alien to Islam.

No, in the sense that other Muslims (including other Islamists) are not hung-up on where ideas come from, or don't perceive democracy as a system alien to Islam -and would hence be happy to use democracy as a system of governance.

The tragic thing is that most Muslims in the world understand "democracy" to be akin to the current systems of governance in Egypt, Pakistan, Palestinian lands etc etc. In other words, not "proper" (in the sense of well balanced and transparent) democracies.

[Hax]

There are many openings, but the islam as a political ideoligy is a very recent thing, it is no longer just a spriritual thing.

Yes, and you know who are responsible for that? Not the large mainstream of the Muslim population, but those politically traumatised activists from Saudi-Arabia and Afghanistan. Before they hijacked planes, they hijacked the image of Islam.


EDIT: For some time I had little hope for reform within Sunni Islam, until I came across Ali Abdel Raziq, a Sunni scholar from Egypt who died in 1966. His views are very interesting:

"The complete separation of religion and politics is to be achieved in the interest of Islam, as a universal faith. The faith could, then be released free from the contingencies of history and power politics. This device can also be instrumental in furnishing the basis of modern state. It thus keeps the option open whether we want, to stick to the 'archaic and cumbersome regime, or weather the time has come to lay the foundation for a new political organization according to the latest progress of human spirit ."

"Islam is innocent of this insitution of the caliphate as Muslims commonly understand it. Religion has nothing to do with one form of government rather than anothe r and there is nothing in Islam which forbids Muslims to destroy their old political system and build a new one on the basis of the newest conceptions of the human spirit and the experience of nations."

This is incredibly important in order to (re)concile Islam with western values. He was thrown out of Al-Azhar university for his book, but it did spark new intellectual and philosophical debate in Egypt. If Shi'a Islam reforms in Iran, then Sunni Islam will reform in Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon.