This Week's Evil Islam Thread

[rory_20_uk]

Islam isn't missionary.

Yet there are both forced conversions as well as individuals calling for others to convert.

[Fragony]

@Beskar, what has been done doesn't matter, what has to be done matters. Bible is written in passed pressence there is no obligation god can handle things just fine, that is totally different from the islam who sends mankind on a mission in the name of god

[Beskar]

@Beskar, what has been done doesn't matter, what has to be done matters. Bible is written in passed pressence there is no obligation god can handle things just fine, that is totally different from the islam who sends mankind on a mission in the name of god

The solution to that would be the naturalization of 'Western Liberal Democracy' into the population. So where many Christianities cherry-pick from the bible, many Muslims cherry-pick from the Koran.

[HoreTore]

Yet there are both forced conversions as well as individuals calling for others to convert.

Ever had a muslim missionary knock on your door?

Me neither.

[Fragony]

The solution to that would be the naturalization of 'Western Liberal Democracy' into the population. So where many Christianities cherry-pick from the bible, many Muslims cherry-pick from the Koran.

Not the same thing still, christianity is a force within a system, it isn't out to change it. Democracy and islam can't coexist, doesn't mean we should fight islam, but the islam can't be integrated we have different take on things. Let's just stay out of eachother's way.

[rory_20_uk]

So... knocking on doors is the only thing that missionaries do?

I've had several with speakers / pamphlets / books on street corners. Just publicly updating believers, eh?

[Hax]

Democracy and islam can't coexist, doesn't mean we should fight islam, but the islam can't be integrated we have different take on things.

Interestingly, we have seen that Shi'ite states in the past have succeeded in modernising their society quite well. The Buwayhids (or Buyids, however you like it) nearly had a sort of proto-laïcité like state, where religion was not a matter of the state, but rather of the people. The basic tenets of Sunni Islam have some democratic elements in them as well, although that does not make them fully democratic.

Fragony, I recommend "The History of Islamic Political Thought" by professor Antony Black. It's an excellent review of numerous Islamic political concepts ranging from the early Rashidun Caliphate to the present.

[rory_20_uk]

Not the same thing still, christianity is a force within a system, it isn't out to change it. Democracy and islam can't coexist, doesn't mean we should fight islam, but the islam can't be integrated we have different take on things. Let's just stay out of eachother's way.

I disagree. Extreme right wing Jews for example will put religious law above all others. They can not be integrated; many Jews in Germany put secular law above religious law. They can be.

There are loads of Muslims who are integrated and we don't hear much about them due to this; in the same way Sikhs integrate by carrying either a tiny, blunt dagger or a symbol of one, not the wickedly sharp version they might have done in the last.

Christianity as pracitced in the Middle Ages could not coexist with democracy - look at Charles I in England for example with the divine right of kings. Things have moved on.

It all goes back to that countries appear to be obsessed to have multicultural societies, as opposed to multi-faith and multi-racial societies - but crucially one culture. So, abiding by secular laws foremost for example, and tolerating others should be accepted as normal behaviour by all. By pretending that every culture will somehow get along is unhelpful to say the least.

[Fragony]

Interestingly, we have seen that Shi'ite states in the past have succeeded in modernising their society quite well. The Buwayhids (or Buyids, however you like it) nearly had a sort of proto-laïcite like state, where religion was not a matter of the state, but rather of the people. The basic tenets of Sunni Islam have some democratic elements in them as well, although that does not make them fully democratic.

Fragony, I recommend "The History of Islamic Political Thought" by professor Antony Black. It's an excellent review of numerous Islamic political concepts ranging from the early Rashidun Caliphate to the present.

There are many openings, but the islam as a political ideoligy is a very recent thing, it is no longer just a spriritual thing. We leave them be and they don't impose on us, sounds good?

@Rory, muslims can integrate, but they will have to burn their ships and get on with it, islam has no place here, muslims do

[al Roumi]

Not the same thing still, christianity is a force within a system, it isn't out to change it. Democracy and islam can't coexist, doesn't mean we should fight islam, but the islam can't be integrated we have different take on things. Let's just stay out of eachother's way.

Yes and no.

Yes, in the sense that some Islamists (i.e. Muslims who think Islam should play a central role in politics) see democracy as a foreign (western) construct, alien to Islam.

No, in the sense that other Muslims (including other Islamists) are not hung-up on where ideas come from, or don't perceive democracy as a system alien to Islam -and would hence be happy to use democracy as a system of governance.

The tragic thing is that most Muslims in the world understand "democracy" to be akin to the current systems of governance in Egypt, Pakistan, Palestinian lands etc etc. In other words, not "proper" (in the sense of well balanced and transparent) democracies.

[Hax]

There are many openings, but the islam as a political ideoligy is a very recent thing, it is no longer just a spriritual thing.

Yes, and you know who are responsible for that? Not the large mainstream of the Muslim population, but those politically traumatised activists from Saudi-Arabia and Afghanistan. Before they hijacked planes, they hijacked the image of Islam.


EDIT: For some time I had little hope for reform within Sunni Islam, until I came across Ali Abdel Raziq, a Sunni scholar from Egypt who died in 1966. His views are very interesting:

"The complete separation of religion and politics is to be achieved in the interest of Islam, as a universal faith. The faith could, then be released free from the contingencies of history and power politics. This device can also be instrumental in furnishing the basis of modern state. It thus keeps the option open whether we want, to stick to the 'archaic and cumbersome regime, or weather the time has come to lay the foundation for a new political organization according to the latest progress of human spirit ."

"Islam is innocent of this insitution of the caliphate as Muslims commonly understand it. Religion has nothing to do with one form of government rather than anothe r and there is nothing in Islam which forbids Muslims to destroy their old political system and build a new one on the basis of the newest conceptions of the human spirit and the experience of nations."

This is incredibly important in order to (re)concile Islam with western values. He was thrown out of Al-Azhar university for his book, but it did spark new intellectual and philosophical debate in Egypt. If Shi'a Islam reforms in Iran, then Sunni Islam will reform in Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon.

[al Roumi]

There are many openings, but the islam as a political ideoligy is a very recent thing, it is no longer just a spriritual thing. We leave them be and they don't impose on us, sounds good?

Another interesting point. I'm afraid I don't think you are on firm ground arguing that political Islam is new. Right up until the break-up of the Ottoman empire, this was pretty much the way in which most Muslims (in the Middle east) were governed. The British and French rule of the middle east (after WW1) ended such Islamist governance, but as the emergence of the Muslim brotherhood in the 1930s (IIRC) shows -Islam as a central part of politics was never forgotten about either.

The concept of Islamism is indeed that Islam should be more than a spiritual thing, and play a central role in political society/life too. Salafists say that the purest form of Islamic society was that during Muhammads lifetime -where he personaly ruled as religious, political and military leader. So to a Salafi mindset, this is what should be aimed at -all 3 pillars of governance under one religious, political and military leader.

[HoreTore]

So... knocking on doors is the only thing that missionaries do?

I've had several with speakers / pamphlets / books on street corners. Just publicly updating believers, eh?

Huh, never encountered that actually. Only ever seen mormons, jehovas and some random lutherans do that...

[Tellos Athenaios]

@Fragony: the notion of Christianity as a force to shape society and more or less dictate its norms and values is something that is strongly entrenched if not a core value/proposition of quite a few Protestant churches. True, at the core the Quran has always been more about a practical set of rules/morals to which a believer must (strive to) conform; but you should not ignore that part of the beliefs espoused by Christianity/Islam involves things that are little more than attempts to read such rules/morals into their Scripture. So even if Christianity may lack some Sunnah it more than makes up for this by “interpreting” what exactly Jesus/Peter/Paul/et.all mean in some given verse.

[rory_20_uk]

Muslims in the UK get TV slots to complain that they're being descriminated against.

Things in Pakistan are different... Death to the infidel and family!

[HoreTore]

Muslims in the UK get TV slots to complain that they're being descriminated against.

Things in Pakistan are different... Death to the infidel and family!

Why are you comparing a democratic UK to a dictatorship?

Religion is persecuted in China as well, should british people of chinese origin face restrictions too? Shouldn't Chinese Brits be allowed to tell others of Taoism because the Chinese Communist Party hunts down christian missionaries?

[Fragony]

Muslims in the UK get TV slots to complain that they're being descriminated against.

Things in Pakistan are different... Death to the infidel and family!

Let's put things in perspective, I'm from teh biblebelt and some kids weren't allowed to play at our house. Gutmensch knows that's just as bad and that islam is very tolerant. Stockholm syndromed lemming.

[Fragony]

Why are you comparing a democratic UK to a dictatorship?

Religion is persecuted in China as well, should british people of chinese origin face restrictions too? Shouldn't Chinese Brits be allowed to tell others of Taoism because the Chinese Communist Party hunts down christian missionaries?

HI straw meet grasp, are you really relativating this? Yep, you are.

[HoreTore]

HI straw meet grasp, are you really relativating this? Yep, you are.

Are you saying that the cultural revolution was better than fundamentalist islam?

You're starting to sound like a commie, Frags...

[rory_20_uk]

Why are you comparing a democratic UK to a dictatorship?

Religion is persecuted in China as well, should british people of chinese origin face restrictions too? Shouldn't Chinese Brits be allowed to tell others of Taoism because the Chinese Communist Party hunts down christian missionaries?

In China, as you well know, religion is persecuted by the state.
In Pakistan, as you well know, religion is persecuted by followers of the religion and the state which is itself heavily influenced by the same religion.

Why build this particular straw man?

[HoreTore]

In China, as you well know, religion is persecuted by the state.
In Pakistan, as you well know, religion is persecuted by followers of the religion and the state which is itself heavily influenced by the same religion.

Why build this particular straw man?

The cultural revolution, as you should be well aware of, wasn't just done by "the state", but but millions of chinese people. Just like the holocaust was done by the german people and not Hitler personally, and religious persecution in Pakistan is done by religious people in Pakistan and not the Prime Minister personally.

Attributing the deadly flaws of communism to a select few, a "corrupt elite"(or state), is a well-known communist denial lie. I wasn't aware of any others subscribing to such nonsense. The attrocities committed by Communism, Nazism, Islamism, Cathlocism or whatever isn't performed by Mao, Hitler or some pope or mullah, they are performed by the masses, who are in turned whipped into action by those mullahs, popes or Maos.

[rory_20_uk]

Oh, in China you're going back 60 years. You didn't mention that.

I was meaning that in Pakistan it is done by the individual Muslims - that was my whole point. And yes, they are whipped to greater acts of intolerance and hatred by their religious leaders.

How exactly does this make it a good thing?

[Fragony]

Are you saying that the cultural revolution was better than fundamentalist islam?

eh, no I didn't, how is that even related, or smart. I'm really bad at leftist logic, I just don't see it

[HoreTore]

Oh, in China you're going back 60 years. You didn't mention that.

I was meaning that in Pakistan it is done by the individual Muslims - that was my whole point. And yes, they are whipped to greater acts of intolerance and hatred by their religious leaders.

It's been happening for 60 years now, yes. And it's still done by individual Chinese citizens, though certainly helped by the state, just like religious persecution in Pakistan is done by individual Pakistanis, though certainly helped by religious authorities.

And I fail to see the difference between the two. Except, perhaps, that religion was nearly wiped out by the cultural revolution in China, so the opportunity to persecute religion isn't so big there anymore.

How exactly does this make it a good thing?

Good? Who's talking about "good"? My question was why what's happening in Pakistan(or China) should affect the lives of British citizens.

[rory_20_uk]

I still think China is a poor example, as it has increasingly opened up to various different religions which are tolerated as long as they do not try to undermine the state.

For Pakistan you can interchange Iran, Egypt, Indonesia, Iraq, Saudi Arabia or any number of other Islamic states. It so happened that Pakistan is the current cause celebre as well as is the home of many Muslims in the UK. I find the irony that they feel persecuted at the same time their extended family does vastly worse things to other religions. No introspective "perhaps things here aren't perfect, but are a lot worse elsewhere" or "remove the plank from my own eye before the speck from my neighbours".

[Fragony]

The difference between the two is that you excuse the fundamentalist islam by bringing up the cultural revolution, and would never excuse the cultural revolution by bringing up the fundamentalist islam.

[HoreTore]

I find the irony that they feel persecuted at the same time their extended family does vastly worse things to other religions.

I still don't see why that should affect british laws.

The difference between the two is that you excuse the fundamentalist islam by bringing up the cultural revolution, and would never excuse the cultural revolution by bringing up the fundamentalist islam.

Nonsense.

Does bringing up Gulag excuse the Holocaust? I think not.

[Fragony]

Does bringing up Gulag excuse the Holocaust? I think not.

Neither do I, and I don't feel the need to relativate either

[rory_20_uk]

I still don't see why that should affect british laws.

Laws? No. A feeling of gratitude towards one's supposedly adopted country? Yes.

[HoreTore]

There are plenty of communists living in the west who'd like nothing more than to see western civilization crash and burn, just like muslim extremists do. But should that affect our laws?

I know a few people with deep connections with FARC living in Norway, taking advantage of our western civilization while hoping for a collapse of capitalism. but I don't think we should persecute or ban communism because of that. I still believe it is their right to engage in political debate, give their opinions and try to convince others that their opinions are correct.