Euro Area

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm not anti-EU, just anti-euro-in-its-present-form. And I'm not anti-politics like IA either, I think that's a dead end.

Constitutionally guaranteed budget limits as per Merkel/Sarkozy require either elections or a referendum in each eurozone country, so yes, we're all going to have a vote about this.

AII

I'm not "anti" EU, but the institution is corrupt, and therefore I oppose its rule over me.

[Adrian II]

the institution is corrupt

So is your own government. Corruption is all the rage these days, it is not particular to the EU.

The EU and its powers were created by consent of the member states. Not one EU member state has sought to opt out of it yet. The EU has brought us peace and prosperity.

It has huge flaws, of course. These reflect the flaws in our own governing castes, nothing more, nothing less.

AII

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So is your own government. Corruption is all the rage these days, it is not particular to the EU.

The EU and its powers were created by consent of the member states. Not one EU member state has sought to opt out of it yet. The EU has brought us peace and prosperity.

It has huge flaws, of course. These reflect the flaws in our own governing castes, nothing more, nothing less.

AII

I do not believe the EU has brought us peace and prosperity, it has been allowed to exist because of peace and prosperity. The EU is beginning to unravel now and populism and nationalism are rising because of the fall in prosperity.

As to "consent", the UK consented to a free trade block, and no party in the UK (before UKIP) campaigned on an anti-EU ticket since, we have not had any alternatives.

[Adrian II]

@ Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla. So you seriously believe that a single market with one set of rules to which 27 countries with 497 million consumers subscribe does not bring additional prosperity?

@ Furunculus. The EU represents you and is accountable to you. It's just that there are 497 million more citizens and they don't all happen to agree with Furunculus.

Why do these things need explaining? I blame it on modern education.

AII

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

@ Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla. So you seriously believe that a single market with one set of rules to which 27 countries with 497 million consumers subscribe does not bring additional prosperity?

Additional prosperity is different to "peace and prosperity", which I believe we would have had without the EU, certain countries have also benifitted more than others. Britain has notably suffered because of the CAP and the Fisheries policy. In any case, as I said, Britons voted in favour of a Common market and have not had a say since. We should have had a referendum on EU membership when we became EU "citizens" and got EU passports, but we didn't.

The assumption that the British people are better off not being allowed to express their deep-seated Euroscrepticism through Referenda is anti-democratic. Nor is the EU parliament anything other than an irrelevence, power rests with the Commission - everyone knows this - and that is why political parties send their novices and cranks to Europe to get rid of them/weather them. People don't go "up" to Europe in the UK they come "down" to it and them back "up" to london when they are allowed to be serious politicians.

[Furunculus]

@ Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla. So you seriously believe that a single market with one set of rules to which 27 countries with 497 million consumers subscribe does not bring additional prosperity?

@ Furunculus. The EU represents you and is accountable to you. It's just that there are 497 million more citizens and they don't all happen to agree with Furunculus.

Why do these things need explaining? I blame it on modern education.

AII

because you treat politics as a logical, dry and intellectual exercise, whereas i see it as a visceral and fractious argument over who you identify with, and thus who you are willing to compromise with.

[Adrian II]

because you treat politics as a logical, dry and intellectual exercise, whereas i see it as a visceral and fractious argument over who you identify with, and thus who you are willing to compromise with.

You can always move to the Balkans then.

AII

[Brenus]

"You can always move to the Balkans then." Not before I buy my house near the Danube, thanks. Have to keep the price down and avoid the Croatian Coast (cost) syndrome...

[Furunculus]

You can always move to the Balkans then.

AII

no thanks, i get my fill from our wonderful adversarial winner-takes-all system of politics right here in britain.

a federal brussels has NOTHING to offer me.

[Furunculus]

So is your own government. Corruption is all the rage these days, it is not particular to the EU.

quite, but it is neither representitive of, or accountable to, me.