Euro Area

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I know, but at the end of the day, you as an individual pay different total amount depending in which state you live. Corporations likewise.

Yes, but the Federal Government still collects large revenues, including income tax. The US also has a transfer union, so the Federal Government moves money from richer states to poorer ones. Just because noy all taxes are harmonised does not mean there is no fiscal union, there is.

Local taxes are not fully harmonised in the UK either, but we still have a fiscal union.

[Sarmatian]

Yes, but the Federal Government still collects large revenues, including income tax. The US also has a transfer union, so the Federal Government moves money from richer states to poorer ones. Just because noy all taxes are harmonised does not mean there is no fiscal union, there is.

Local taxes are not fully harmonised in the UK either, but we still have a fiscal union.

Of course, but the opposition to euro emphasized different tax levels as a reason why it won't succeed, not the inability of Brussels to collect taxes across the EMU.

[Furunculus]

my problem is that there is no legitimacy for a transfer union.

no taxation without representation and all that jazz.

given that the eu is neither accountable or representative, and remains disinclined to ask its various peoples whether they will accede to a federal union, i don't see this situation improving.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Of course, but the opposition to euro emphasized different tax levels as a reason why it won't succeed, not the inability of Brussels to collect taxes across the EMU.

Brussels doesn't collect taxes though, and member states won't let it. That is why a currency union was, and is, lunatic.

[Vladimir]

Louis - the face of France is no longer the beret but the beurette.

Don't do a Google image search of beurette at work.

[Kralizec]

Brussels doesn't collect taxes though, and member states won't let it. That is why a currency union was, and is, lunatic.

This argument doesn't fly. The reason why the currency is in (perceived) trouble isn't because member states collect different amounts of taxes, but because some countries vastly outspent their taxation's income and accumulated a pile of debt. In theory they could have been disciplined a long time ago per existing EU criteria, but this has largely been an empty threat precisely because of the sovereignty-fetishists.

The EU doesn't need a permanent transfer union. Just because some American states can't be bothered to become financially self-sufficient doesn't mean we should accept the same from certain countries. At this moment helping out the PIGS countries may be necessary but it must never take permanent form. Their current problems will have to be solved one way or another, and in the future countries will have to be disciplined at the first sign of slacking off on their budgets.

[Adrian II]

In theory they could have been disciplined a long time ago per existing EU criteria, but this has largely been an empty threat precisely because of the sovereignty-fetishists.

No, because of precedent. Both Germany and France ignored the Stability and Growth Pact and got away with it. Now everybody else ignores it and gets away with it.

The Pact wasn't tenable anyway, given both its anticyclical nature and the divergence of the economies concerned. But heaping lawlessnes upon stupidity hasn't exactly produced superior results, has it? And I refuse to accept your logic that we can resolve this mess by adding blindness to the equation.

AII

[gaelic cowboy]

This argument doesn't fly. The reason why the currency is in (perceived) trouble isn't because member states collect different amounts of taxes, but because some countries vastly outspent their taxation's income and accumulated a pile of debt. In theory they could have been disciplined a long time ago per existing EU criteria, but this has largely been an empty threat precisely because of the sovereignty-fetishists.

The EU doesn't need a permanent transfer union. Just because some American states can't be bothered to become financially self-sufficient doesn't mean we should accept the same from certain countries. At this moment helping out the PIGS countries may be necessary but it must never take permanent form. Their current problems will have to be solved one way or another, and in the future countries will have to be disciplined at the first sign of slacking off on their budgets.

Explain Ireland so???? we never broke the GDP debt ratio till the banks went under.

PVC is right

[Tellos Athenaios]

In theory they could have been disciplined a long time ago per existing EU criteria, but this has largely been an empty threat precisely because of the sovereignty-fetishists.

And because the largest players were the ones who consistently flouted these criteria to begin with...

The EU doesn't need a permanent transfer union.

Nah, the EU doesn't need a permanent bail-out union. But a long term transfer union is likely. In a healthy one the net recipients change from time to time as the economy fluctuates, where the money is then used to get out of the net recipient bracket and into the net payer one (which is preferable on the whole, because it implies a far healthier economy). The challenge for these countries is to expand their service sector beyond their internal markets. Portugal and Spain have some success with that in terms of IT & health care.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Explain Ireland so???? we never broke the GDP debt ratio till the banks went under.

Of course not. And everyone, from time to time will do it. The challenge is here not to let this be done out of lazy habit, because you can get away with it (once, or twice or thrice...).

Ireland is a classic example of what happens when a small country guarantees an entire tanking sector, one which represents an economic value that is simply far larger than what the country ordinarily deals with on its balance sheet. So the punch hits home much harder. That can't really be helped, you can't simply conjure such funds when you simply don't have it.

[Kralizec]

No, because of precedent. Both Germany and France ignored the Stability and Growth Pact and got away with it. Now everybody else ignores it and gets away with it.

The Pact wasn't tenable anyway, given both its anticyclical nature and the divergence of the economies concerned. But heaping lawlessnes upon stupidity hasn't exactly produced superior results, has it? And I refuse to accept your logic that we can resolve this mess by adding blindness to the equation.

AII

The criteria themselves (3% deficit and 60% government debt) are somewhat arbitrary, and usually exceeded anyway in a period of recession when governments resort to deficit spending (what's wrong with anticyclical spending anyway?)
These criteria have however, never been intended as an instant justification for sanctions but as a prerequisite, as evidenced by the fact that the council can, but doesn't have to impose sanctions in the case of a breech. Wich brings me to the second point...

Germany and France getting away with their budgetary vices is a symptom of the toothlessness of the pact, not the cause of it. Even if they had behaved themselves on those occasions it's extremely questionable wether anybody else would have been punished for infractions. It was decided in the early days that the ability to impose sanctions should lie with the council (i.e. the national leaders and potential culprits) instead of a supranational body like the European Commission, or some other EU institution. The reason? The fear of losing sovereignty, or the appearance of giving away sovereignty in front of voters.

Explain Ireland so???? we never broke the GDP debt ratio till the banks went under.

PVC is right

I stand corrected, in regards to Ireland. What I said still stands for Greece, Italy and some others though.
I still haven't seen anybody put forward a coherent argument why overarching taxes are necessary for a monetary union.

But a long term transfer union is likely. In a healthy one the net recipients change from time to time as the economy fluctuates, where the money is then used to get out of the net recipient bracket and into the net payer one (which is preferable on the whole, because it implies a far healthier economy). The challenge for these countries is to expand their service sector beyond their internal markets. Portugal and Spain have some success with that in terms of IT & health care.

I don't have much agains the system you describe if it's meant for emergencies or unusual situations. As a general procedure, it smells of moral hazard.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The criteria themselves (3% deficit and 60% government debt) are somewhat arbitrary, and usually exceeded anyway in a period of recession when governments resort to deficit spending (what's wrong with anticyclical spending anyway?)
These criteria have however, never been intended as an instant justification for sanctions but as a prerequisite, as evidenced by the fact that the council can, but doesn't have to impose sanctions in the case of a breech. Wich brings me to the second point...

Germany and France getting away with their budgetary vices is a symptom of the toothlessness of the pact, not the cause of it. Even if they had behaved themselves on those occasions it's extremely questionable wether anybody else would have been punished for infractions. It was decided in the early days that the ability to impose sanctions should lie with the council (i.e. the national leaders and potential culprits) instead of a supranational body like the European Commission, or some other EU institution. The reason? The fear of losing sovereignty, or the appearance of giving away sovereignty in front of voters.



I stand corrected, in regards to Ireland. What I said still stands for Greece, Italy and some others though.
I still haven't seen anybody put forward a coherent argument why overarching taxes are necessary for a monetary union.



I don't have much agains the system you describe if it's meant for emergencies or unusual situations. As a general procedure, it smells of moral hazard.

You sound like the German politics student I lived with. It's simple:

Try to "dicipline" Greece after the recession and they will give you the finger, because the Greek government is elected by the Greeks and you cannot make demands of a soverign country. If you have a mechanism for successfully diciplining Greece then you will have persuaded her, and the rest of the Eurozone to surrender fiscal soverignty.

That. won't. happen.

Such a change MUST be approved by plebicite, unless you want to trigger serious civil unrest, the sort of thing that makes the recent Greek protests look like mild complaint.

Fiscal diciple takes you down the same road as a transfer union, and that is Political Union.

The failure to accept these basic facts is what got you lot into this mess, burying your head in the sand at this point is not only irresponsible, it is bordering on insane. Either bit the bullet or bite the head of the Hydra.

[Furunculus]

In theory they could have been disciplined a long time ago per existing EU criteria, but this has largely been an empty threat precisely because of the sovereignty-fetishists.

what happens when the large majority are "sovereignty fetishists" as you so choicely described it?

i tell you what happens; it becomes your problem (the supranational fetishists), not ours.

you are advocating solutions that can only be implemented in an unrepresentative democracy!

[Adrian II]

(what's wrong with anticyclical spending anyway?)

Oh snap!

Fortunately you already knew what was meant: the pact discourages meaningful anticyclical policies.

P.S. Oh dear, Furunculus is doing a Farrage.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh snap!

Fortunately you already knew what was meant: the pact discourages meaningful anticyclical policies.

P.S. Oh dear, Furunculus is doing a Farrage.

Yeah? Did you not see the video I posted earlier, Farragw was the prophet of the Eurozone crisis.

[Beskar]

my problem is that there is no legitimacy for a transfer union.

no taxation without representation and all that jazz.

given that the eu is neither accountable or representative, and remains disinclined to ask its various peoples whether they will accede to a federal union, i don't see this situation improving.

You know I am pro-representation and you know my views on what a Federal Europe should become. In the same breath, you don't want my vision of Europe to ever occur because full well your arguments of "no representation" "lack of democracy" "stupid bureaucracy" would no longer be valid, so the world you have shaped in your vision would be ney impossible to create.

It is one of those situations where the arguments being used against a structure so you have legitimacy to say "Let's pull right out of Europe and stuff it", however solutions to the issues such as representation amongst other things is something you seriously do not want as your goal is to pull out of Europe and the idea of a European Federation, not because of the lack of representation itself.

This manifests itself in European politics as the political battles are fought over Europe. There are a great many people advocating for reform, to usher in a era of a stable and democratic Europe, but these are strongly opposed by those who want to pull out of Europe altogether and those who have their fingers in the pie of cronyism. The pro-Europeans have the fight the united forces of Cronyism and European Skepticism made worse by the fact the Cronyism feign to bat for both sides in order to strengthen their own position within Europe at expense of the pro-Europeans and the anti-Europeans.

[Vladimir]

Oh snap!

Fortunately you already knew what was meant: the pact discourages meaningful anticyclical policies.

P.S. Oh dear, Furunculus is doing a Farrage.

Do you mean the Furunculus Maneuver?

[Adrian II]

Yeah? Did you not see the video I posted earlier, Farragw was the prophet of the Eurozone crisis.

I know. Furunculus just compared the EU to the USSR just like Farrage did.

Hence my remark that he was doing a Farrage.

AII

[Furunculus]

P.S. Oh dear, Furunculus is doing a Farrage.

what's a "farage"

You know I am pro-representation and you know my views on what a Federal Europe should become. In the same breath, you don't want my vision of Europe to ever occur because full well your arguments of "no representation" "lack of democracy" "stupid bureaucracy" would no longer be valid, so the world you have shaped in your vision would be ney impossible to create.

that's because i don't recognise 'europe' to be a valid demos whereby i can have a reasonable amount of confidence that a broad majority view shares my aims and expectations, thus reassuring me that when bad things happen that the response will be predictable and conform to my desires.

I know. Furunculus just compared the EU to the USSR just like Farrage did.
Hence my remark that he was doing a Farrage.
AII

aha, i understand, but presuming you are referring to the soviet-elections hyperlink that was predicated on the EU creating this transfer union without the a mandate from its 'people', which would be an excellent parallel to the old soviet lark of giving everyone a vote which makes no tangible difference to their governance.

There are a great many people advocating for reform, to usher in a era of a stable and democratic Europe

i'm one of them, i want to return europe to a solid principle of intergovernmental rule whereby sovereign nations beholden to their electorates via legitimate ties founded in representation and accountability.

[Papewaio]

So if the ability to move around the EU zone both people and capital already exist... Why not evolve into a Federation with the ability to vote at local council, state and EU level?

What is lost if Joe Citizen can have the same mobility of self as C-level executives?

It seems to me that the most adaptable wins. At the moment corporations trump the nations in the EU because the corps and their key staff are already supranational.

You've gone from cities, to city states to nations. Why not create a federated model?

[Furunculus]

So if the ability to move around the EU zone both people and capital already exist... Why not evolve into a Federation with the ability to vote at local council, state and EU level?

What is lost if Joe Citizen can have the same mobility of self as C-level executives?

It seems to me that the most adaptable wins. At the moment corporations trump the nations in the EU because the corps and their key staff are already supranational.

You've gone from cities, to city states to nations. Why not create a federated model?

we already have a free movement of labour, which is great, but as noted previously:

because i don't recognise 'europe' to be a valid demos whereby i can have a reasonable amount of confidence that a broad majority view shares my aims and expectations, thus reassuring me that when bad things happen that the response will be predictable and conform to my desires.

for example, as a person that gets his kicks out of geopolitics i am quite content that my nation should retain nukes (and nuclear) alongside a (sensibly) interventionist foreign policy. i do not recognise as valid or legitimate german decisions to dodge afghanistan and libya or to reject nuclear and nukes, but that is fine because they are a different demos that is free to do their own thing, so the idea that britain might constrain its ambitions to fit the consensus of our continental cousins is absurd.

the answer is obvious; the european economic area, or EEC, where sovereign nation states of europe cooperate and collaborate on shared interests.

why seek more when it will only lead to the very strife that our federasts believe they are helping us to avoid?

[Papewaio]

So can Britain then fully devolve into the UUK... The Un-United Kingdoms of England, Northern Island, Scotland, Wales & The Manx.

Surely given your argument it would be best if Leeds and Manchestor form their own city states to look after their own demo...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So can Britain then fully devolve into the UUK... The Un-United Kingdoms of England, Northern Island, Scotland, Wales & The Manx.

Surely given your argument it would be best if Leeds and Manchestor form their own city states to look after their own demo...

Well, no, because we would use force to restore order, the EU cannot do the same.

German Leopads will not roll into Athens to enforce austerityy.

[Furunculus]

So can Britain then fully devolve into the UUK... The Un-United Kingdoms of England, Northern Island, Scotland, Wales & The Manx.

Surely given your argument it would be best if Leeds and Manchestor form their own city states to look after their own demo...

a fine example of reductio-ad-absurdum.

think on this; indirect democracy only works because you have sufficient confidence that your peers will act in a sufficiently predictable and acceptable manner, that you are willing to be bound by their collective decisions and share in responsibility for acts taken in your name. if you are unwilling to give of your authority that others may act in your name it is because you do not perceive government as legitimate, most probably because it is neither accountable nor representative of your interests.

i have this confidence in britain; as Louis has on occasion noted we are a boisterous and warlike bunch still, with an apparent love of exactly the kind of adversarial politics, and the same hate of arbitrary interference in personal life.

it works for me, i am content.

as for scotland et-al, they are fee to do as they wish. if they want independence they can have it, i would believe them to be idiots as we have achieved our greatest acts united, but it would be evidence of precisely that lack of shared familial sentiment that is necessary for healthy majoritarian governance to exists. rather than compel them to adhere to the united kingdom, and invent torturous proportional systems of governance to ameliorate their ill-feeling i would rather let them walk away.

[Furunculus]

those plucky finns are demonstrating the results of precisely that lack of shared familial sentiment:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...t-support.html

it's all very well to put your time and effort into helping out the families persistently drunk uncle, but would you put the same time and effort into getting someone else's drunk uncle back on the wagon?

[Fragony]

Go Finland, how very populist of you to look after your own interests instead of the EUSSR's. Why is there doubt? In your heart

heh timberrrrr

[gaelic cowboy]

This has a familiar pattern to it by now, politicians fail to get ahead of the story and announce austerity plans.


France set to announce austerity measures

We can expect that some bit down the road a new crisis will occur, my bet is low or no french growth.

Thats bad for Ireland as we just recorded a huge trade surplus, any stop to world or euro recovery hit those surpluses were using to pay the bailout with.

dairy sales help lift Ireland to record trade surplus


Yea I knew it was too good to be true, I bet ye 10 euro in paddy power we record a trade deficit at the end of the year even with the massive surplus in first half.
Fear deepens for eurozone's economy as growth stalls

[Papewaio]

think on this; indirect democracy only works because you have sufficient confidence that your peers will act in a sufficiently predictable and acceptable manner, that you are willing to be bound by their collective decisions and share in responsibility for acts taken in your name. if you are unwilling to give of your authority that others may act in your name it is because you do not perceive government as legitimate, most probably because it is neither accountable nor representative of your interests.

I don't expect my fellow citizens to vote the same way as me, or to have the same desires. I do believe that democracy is a very good way to moderate a government and with the proper tools of transparency and checks and balances.

What I do think is that the EU got its economic game on before it got its political one. It should have allowed voting at the EU level by the people. I find it strange that the EU formed, made monetary policy yet left off the ability to vote for those who make such decisions.

To me it shows either lack of foresight or power mungering by the politicians... greed and stupidity is an attribute found throughout humanity.

[Kagemusha]

To me it is only responsible politics from Finnish leadership. They are following the democratic will of Finnish people, which is not to throw money down to the well. Yesterday German Chancellor Merkel rejected the idea of bilateral guarantees between individual Euro Nations. Is Merkel rejecting the souverinity of Finland?

Now i want to be perfectly clear about this. EU is not a federal state and Merkel is not the Chancellor of EU. There might be certain wish for that, but that is not a fact and unless democratically decided so, EU member nations retain their souverinity. Ive said many weeks a go already that if we want to keep having Euro, which we have to, those not meeting the EMU criteria has to be kicked out. Thus i agreed to the earlier buffer trust for emergencies like we are in right now.

Still the problem is that the financial injections do not seem to have the effect that was hoped for them, thus further injections towards Greece are just money waisted. This creates a problem for any responsible Government, which right now i am not counting Germany and France among. If they have an vague idea of federal Europe in the future, that is fine and dandy, but they cant base the current politics for that vision. Even more so, when i am not sure there is democratic majority in any of the EU countries for Federal State right now. Thus they are being irresponsible in their efforts of holding the Union as tight as possible, when the function of EU is not right now, anything akin to their future vision.

Personally i dont think that the monetary crisis right now is derived from political problems of EU, but a global problem in both market economy and economical mis thinking when it comes to foundations of economical model for Nations. The current economical thought that there is no need to base currencies in actual wealth like for example Gold, creates an enviroment, where the value itself has no value other then theoretical and the best way to make profit is to manipulate currency values, by injecting and withdrawing "money" to the FX market. Meanwhile the basic thought of economical growth is that the best growth, no matter if it is a independent business or a Nation state can be achieved by living on a debt, which is not intended entirely never to be paid back, as the future profits are thought to make the actual debt profitable.So the debt is not anymore there for expansion of profitable efforts, but thought as profit in itself.

This kind of model is just not sustainable. We need something real to base our economies into.

[Fragony]

If you get this of my back I'm going to order a random fin a pizza. Time for a proper Euro project 'pizza's for Finnish'