Euro Area

[gaelic cowboy]

...or alternatively Ireland and Greece can stop whining and clean ship instead, so they don't end up in a position like this in the fist place

Clean ship with what my good man how do we clean ship when were now stuck with even more DEBT you just helped our stupid goverment make a banking insolvency crisis into a sovereign insolvency crisis. Fianna Fail may have been completely reckless in giving the banks a blank cheque but what the hell is the EU actually doing honouring the bloody thing for now.

explanation in writing please to the dept of finance

Department of Finance,
Government Buildings,
Upper Merrion Street,
Dublin 2,
Republic of Ireland

[Louis VI the Fat]

Clean ship with what my good man how do we clean ship when were now stuck with even more DEBT you just helped our stupid goverment make a banking insolvency crisis into a sovereign insolvency crisis. Fianna Fail may have been completely reckless in giving the banks a blank cheque but what the hell is the EU actually doing honouring the bloody thing for now.

explanation in writing please to the dept of finance

Department of Finance,
Government Buildings,
Upper Merrion Street,
Dublin 2,
Republic of Ireland

In effect, what you are saying is that Europe should've disagreed with Irish policy. Europe should not have supported Ireland when it turned out Ireland did not have the funds to persevere in its policy. This no doubt would've resulted in Ireland being 'Eurosceptic for a decade'.

Now that we do agree, and have send tens of billions of European taxpayer money to guarantee Irish debts, Ireland will be 'Eurosceptic for a decade' too.

Or perhaps we should've let it linger on, as apparantly Dublin wanted too, with utter disregard for the financial stability of the entire continent. 'We've got enough money to last 'till spring, so until then we can hope for some fairy Godmother / the X-men / Elvis Presley to show up with a solution. While we wait for that, we shall endanger the currency and livelihood of the whole of Europe, which is none of concern'.
Well I question why Europe should be the one without a seat when the music stops. Europe is not a martyr for failed Irish policy. Europe can not change Irish policy at the last minute. It was too late for that.


Damned if we do, damned if we don't. The easy way out: it is all Europe's fault. Nobody has to take responsibility.
As for the Europscepticism: can we count on Ireland the next decade being Britannosceptic, IMF-o-sceptic, Denmarkosceptic? They paid for the bailout too, only a minority of the funds are from the Eurozone.



If the EU had not honoured the Irish policy, then it would've gone from a banking insolvency crisis to a sovereign crisis to a European crisis. What we should've done, is hang some bankers and bondholders. Not all of them, just as much as it takes to have the surviving ones go from door to door across the whole of Ireland and beg the locals for forgiveness as offer their bonusses of the past decade in compensation. This policy is sadly not feasible in the current climate of 'I love being sucked dry for all I'm worth'.

Failing that, I wonder if it shouldn't have been possbile and doable to simply tell the bondholders they'll receiveve 75 cents on the euro, take it or leave it.

Failing that too, a bailpout is the next best solution. Although as far as I'm concerned, it is daylight robbery unless it is followed up upon with an overhaul of the financial system, which, however as we all know is not going to happen.


The cleaning up is not a short term solution, or a solution of any kind, never mind an easy way out. It's of a more general nature. The cleaning starts wih the very realisation there is no easy way put, no quick and painless solution. The cleaning up must be of the culture at large that plagues the entire West: the refusal to accept any personal responsibility anymore. This to me is the ulterior cause of our current woes.

In this case:
Don't like sovereignity to be eroded? Then don't squander it with a 32% budget deficit, do not to manoeuver yourself into a position of helplessness.
Don't like foreigners lending you money? Then levy taxes.
Don't like conditions on a foreign loan? Then don't complain about what is self-explanatory - all risky loans have conditions - but make sure you do not become dependent on a foreign loan.
Don't like poor Irish to have to pay? Then don't complain about a foreigner who by necessity has to deal with an Irish government. Instead force your governemtn to go get your money back from the rich Irish culprits who walk away scott free.
Etc.
And lastly: don't like Greece, Ireland, and etc etc endangering your currency? Then speak up before it is too late. After the fact, if you let something happen for eight years, you have become just as much responsible as any of them.

[gaelic cowboy]

In effect, what you are saying is that Europe should've disagreed with Irish policy. Europe should not have supported Ireland when it turned out Ireland did not have the funds to persevere in its policy. This no doubt would've resulted in Ireland being 'Eurosceptic for a decade'.

Now that we do agree, and have send tens of billions of European taxpayer money to guarantee Irish debts, Ireland will be 'Eurosceptic for a decade' too.

The public is mad as hell that our government is not closing down these banks it is seen as an attack on the people.

Or perhaps we should've let it linger on, as apparantly Dublin wanted too, with utter disregard for the financial stability of the entire continent. 'We've got enough money to last 'till spring, so until then we can hope for some fairy Godmother / the X-men / Elvis Presley to show up with a solution. While we wait for that, we shall endanger the currency and livelihood of the whole of Europe, which is none of concern'.
Well I question why Europe should be the one without a seat when the music stops. Europe is not a martyr for failed Irish policy. Europe can not change Irish policy at the last minute. It was too late for that.

As I have said before the banks lied about the fact they were insolvent and that it was not a liquidity crisis therefore they should close. If the banks are insolvent then there really is no point in trying to revive a zombie bank now is there.

Oh and the bank guarantee was extended again by EU finance ministers again during the last few weeks it could easy have been let lapse before you bailed us out.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't. The easy way out: it is all Europe's fault. Nobody has to take responsibility.
As for the Europscepticism: can we count on Ireland the next decade being Britannosceptic, IMF-o-sceptic, Denmarkosceptic? They paid for the bailout too, only a minority of the funds are from the Eurozone.

People are basically enraged that the EU is backing the elite instead of the Irish people the IMF/EU deal has put to the sword the good impression of Europe we used to have.

If the EU had not honoured the Irish policy, then it would've gone from a banking insolvency crisis to a sovereign crisis to a European crisis. What we should've done, is hang some bankers and bondholders. Not all of them, just as much as it takes to have the surviving ones go from door to door across the whole of Ireland and beg the locals for forgiveness as offer their bonusses of the past decade in compensation. This policy is sadly not feasible in the current climate of 'I love being sucked dry for all I'm worth'.

It already is a sovereign crisis Louis that is the problem what the hell is the point in pretending that the Masters of the Universe will lend to you if they believe there is more rot in the system.

Failing that, I wonder if it shouldn't have been possbile and doable to simply tell the bondholders they'll receiveve 75 cents on the euro, take it or leave it.

Yes now were getting to something we can agree on, they already believe there gonna be scalped anyways.

Failing that too, a bailpout is the next best solution. Although as far as I'm concerned, it is daylight robbery unless it is followed up upon with an overhaul of the financial system, which, however as we all know is not going to happen.

A bailout would work only if Ireland were only trying to get public finances back on track.

The cleaning up is not a short term solution, or a solution of any kind, never mind an easy way out. It's of a more general nature. The cleaning starts wih the very realisation there is no easy way put, no quick and painless solution. The cleaning up must be of the culture at large that plagues the entire West: the refusal to accept any personal responsibility anymore. This to me is the ulterior cause of our current woes.

People know fine well they are responsible for borrowing to buy property etc but there not responsible for trying to save zombie banks.

In this case:
Don't like sovereignity to be eroded? Then don't squander it with a 32% budget deficit, do not to manoeuver yourself into a position of helplessness.
Don't like foreigners lending you money? Then levy taxes.
Don't like conditions on a foreign loan? Then don't complain about what is self-explanatory - all risky loans have conditions - but make sure you do not become dependent on a foreign loan.
Don't like poor Irish to have to pay? Then don't complain about a foreigner who by necessity has to deal with an Irish government. Instead force your governemtn to go get your money back from the rich Irish culprits who walk away scott free.
Etc.
And lastly: don't like Greece, Ireland, and etc etc endangering your currency? Then speak up before it is too late. After the fact, if you let something happen for eight years, you have become just as much responsible as any of them.

There are two many problems and the solutions are not solutions at all they are instead sticking plasters.

The 32% budget deficit would be far far smaller if FF were not for trying to maintain an untenable position.

I am against a bailout of my country that merely bails out our banks pure and simple.