Euro Area

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ignore it?


Everything I have written I've done so under the assumption that we are all talking about Europe in a cultural-political sense.


Europe as a geographical concept is meaningless to me, and I fully discard it.

So you just impose your cultural norms on us?

Isn't that genocide?

[Louis VI the Fat]

So you just impose your cultural norms on us?

Isn't that genocide?

Mate I want some of what you are smoking.

Stating that Britain is a European country amounts to genocide now? I'm sorry, but this is bizarre.

[Greyblades]

So you just impose your cultural norms on us?

Isn't that genocide?

I realy hate it when people say this and I wouldn't normally say this but this justifiies it: No just... no. Mass murder is not cultural repression.

[Idaho]

Mate I want some of what you are smoking.

Stating that Britain is a European country amounts to genocide now? I'm sorry, but this is bizarre.

Welcome to the sad and confused mental world of the English Tory

[Furunculus]

Ignore it?


Everything I have written I've done so under the assumption that we are all talking about Europe in a cultural-political sense.


Europe as a geographical concept is meaningless to me, and I fully discard it.

in that case you are wrong, as made clear by PVC:

Loius, "European" is an identity, it is for the in-group to restrict access to others it considers "in" and reject the out-group but you cannot demand that another group be included in your collective identity against their will. If the British people collectively do not believe themselves to be European then they are not, and you cannot force it upon them - that would be a form of cultural genicide.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ignore it?


Everything I have written I've done so under the assumption that we are all talking about Europe in a cultural-political sense.


Europe as a geographical concept is meaningless to me, and I fully discard it.

The difference is between the promolugation of a "European identity" and acceptence that the various peoples of Europe share a history, they are not the same thing.

I realy hate it when people say this and I wouldn't normally say this but this justifiies it: No just... no. Mass murder is not cultural repression.

"Genocide" is not mass murder, it is the destruction of a culture, genocide against the Native American involved destroying the way of life, not the people.

[Furunculus]

The difference is between the promolugation of a "European identity" and acceptence that the various peoples of Europe share a history, they are not the same thing.

correct, that latter falls quite ordinarily within the realm of geographical european'ess.

a european socio/cultural identity is something you as an individual accept and adopt, and is something that can be said to exist at a national level if a significant proportion of the populace likewise accepts and adopts.

the Belgians are european in the manner Louis describes, the British are not.

i would like to see Idaho explain how this view is the confused mental world of an English* Tory........................?





* read: British

[Greyblades]

"Genocide" is not mass murder, it is the destruction of a culture, genocide against the Native American involved destroying the way of life, not the people.

Hah! If only it was that clean.

gen·o·cide 
[jen-uh-sahyd]

–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1940–45; < Greek géno ( s ) race + -cide

—Related forms
gen·o·cid·al, adjective

Source

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hah! If only it was that clean.

Source

It wasn't clean but "genocide" against Native Americans, the Welsh, the Irish, the Bretons, and even the deaf (yeas, the deaf) primarily took the form of re-education in order to destroy the identity root and branch, not the physical extermination of the people.

Have a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

A deliberate attempt by a collective of mainland European nations to impose a particular idenity upon the British peoples to which their own idenity is then subordinated can be considered an act of cultural genocide. Such an act is, at the very least, sinister, politically motivated and a form of "assult" in the same way as any unwanted intrusion is.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I must admit I had to get used to the idea a bit. Not anymore. Now I think it's cool to be genocidal. Move over Idi Amin, Hitler, Stalin. I have surpassed you.

Henceforward I demand to be referred to as 'Louis VI the Terrible, Slayer of Englishmen, Assassin of Albion, Bane of Britain'


Let there not be a child in Britain left which does not cower with fear at the mention of my name!

[Louis VI the Fat]

Welcome to the sad and confused mental world of the English Tory

An endless source of wonder.

If there is one upshot about the current wave of nationalist hysteria sweeping over Europe, it is that the quality of the internets goes up. No need to go through all the hassle of finding nationallistically inclined Poles or Balkanians. Western Europe will suffice.

[Furunculus]

An endless source of wonder.

If there is one upshot about the current wave of nationalist hysteria sweeping over Europe, it is that the quality of the internets goes up. No need to go through all the hassle of finding nationallistically inclined Poles or Balkanians. Western Europe will suffice.

as i said to PVC:

The difference is between the promolugation of a "European identity" and acceptence that the various peoples of Europe share a history, they are not the same thing.

correct, that latter falls quite ordinarily within the realm of geographical european'ess.

a european socio/cultural identity is something you as an individual accept and adopt, and is something that can be said to exist at a national level if a significant proportion of the populace likewise accepts and adopts.

the Belgians are european in the manner Louis describes, the British are not.

i would like to see Idaho explain how this view is the confused mental world of an English* Tory........................?

* read: British

you're the second person to express that sentiment, and seeing as Idaho hasn't replied yet perhaps you would do us the honour of explaining the nature of the confusion of the British Tory...........?

[Greyblades]

It wasn't clean but "genocide" against Native Americans, the Welsh, the Irish, the Bretons, and even the deaf (yeas, the deaf) primarily took the form of re-education in order to destroy the identity root and branch, not the physical extermination of the people.

Have a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

A deliberate attempt by a collective of mainland European nations to impose a particular idenity upon the British peoples to which their own idenity is then subordinated can be considered an act of cultural genocide. Such an act is, at the very least, sinister, politically motivated and a form of "assult" in the same way as any unwanted intrusion is.

But you didnt say "cultural genocide" you just said "genocide" and the physical extermination of people is the defenition of genocide. It does not mean re-education to make people stop considering themselves a specific culure.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Hmm, let me try. You are born, are raised and spend your life in Europe. That pretty much makes you an European. Doesn't mean you have to feel a burning passion for Europe or even a vague sense of 'connectedness' with some arrogant French. Welsh and Scots and Irish are routinely labeled “British” even though they might privately think the UK is something that ought to be dissolved now. Doesn't change the fact they're actually every bit as British as the English Tory to the person sitting in Paris complaining about insolent rosbeefs spoiling his nice France each summer.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hmm, let me try. You are born, are raised and spend your life in Europe. That pretty much makes you an European. Doesn't mean you have to feel a burning passion for Europe or even a vague sense of 'connectedness' with some arrogant French. Welsh and Scots and Irish are routinely labeled “British” even though they might privately think the UK is something that ought to be dissolved now. Doesn't change the fact they're actually every bit as British as the English Tory to the person sitting in Paris complaining about insolent rosbeefs spoiling his nice France each summer.

No, sorry Tellos, it is for the British people to self-identify as European, not for the French to label us so. With the exception of a very specific sub-section of the educated Liberal elite people in Britain do not claim to be "Europeans", the identity is simply not something we engage with. If you speak to the welsh or Scots you will find that, excepting the nationalists, they are willing to be labled "British" because they recognise there isn't a lot of mileage in being "just Welsh".

even so, there are some, among the 600,000 Welsh in Wales in particular, who refuse to recognise the English as "British" and regularly and vocally demand a complete political seperation. They get the short end of the stick though because there are 50 million people in England who claim they are British and around 2 million in Wales who agree with them.

[Tellos Athenaios]

No, sorry Tellos, it is for the British people to self-identify as European, not for the French to label us so. With the exception of a very specific sub-section of the educated Liberal elite people in Britain do not claim to be "Europeans", the identity is simply not something we engage with. If you speak to the welsh or Scots you will find that, excepting the nationalists, they are willing to be labled "British" because they recognise there isn't a lot of mileage in being "just Welsh".

even so, there are some, among the 600,000 Welsh in Wales in particular, who refuse to recognise the English as "British" and regularly and vocally demand a complete political seperation. They get the short end of the stick though because there are 50 million people in England who claim they are British and around 2 million in Wales who agree with them.

I'll try the simpler terms then. European is not just an identity. It is a convenient label to address the inhabitants of this fictitious place called Europe. What you or we feel about that has zero to do with how the term is used by others who want a quick way of addressing the whole of Europe. If in doubt about that, Megas or Vuk will be kind to spoon feed you another classification as “euro”.

It works both ways. The Egyptian protester has no particular feeling of sympathy with some Kenyan cousin, even if both will be indiscriminately referred to as African.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'll try the simpler terms then. European is not just an identity. It is a convenient label to address the inhabitants of this fictitious place called Europe. What you or we feel about that has zero to do with how the term is used by others who want a quick way of addressing the whole of Europe. If in doubt about that, Megas or Vuk will be kind to spoon feed you another classification as “euro”.

It works both ways. The Egyptian protester has no particular feeling of sympathy with some Kenyan cousin, even if both will be indiscriminately referred to as African.

Egypt isn't part of Africa though, remember? It's in a no-place between Africa and Asia!

Seriously though, that isn't a brilliant example.

Back to Europe:

You've used it in two seperate senses above, as a marker for someone who lives in a particular locale and as an identity. Loius is trying to impose the identity-based interpreation, and he has explicitely rejected the geographical one.

Geographically speaking the British Isles are on the periphary of Europe, and our history and culture reflect this. Britain has always looked into Euorpe, like the neighbour looking through your window via a telescope, we never look over our borders. Our closest neighbour is France, but we are seperate by a wide expanse of water, there is no borderland as there is between Germany and France, no meshing of cultures where our two peoples blend together. This is true even on the Channel Islands to a large extent.

This has led to a different way of looking at Europe, which is why British policy has, generally, been to support the losing side in a European war in order to maintain balance on the "mainland". Our direct involvement in European wars has also had a unique character to it.

It's interesting you bring up Megas - he refers to all white people as "Euro's" last I checked, regardless of where they live. Should Canada, Australia and the USA be part of "Europe" as well?

[Louis VI the Fat]

[Idaho]

[CENTER]

I'd love to see that, just to see the gin-swigging, net-curtain-twitching Tories of Merrie Englande fizz at the bunghole.

I'd like a few royals swinging by their necks from the balcony to really top it off though.

[Brenus]

“Geographically speaking the British Isles are on the periphary of Europe, and our history and culture reflect this. Britain has always looked into Euorpe, like the neighbour looking through your window via a telescope, we never look over our borders. Our closest neighbour is France, but we are seperated by a wide expanse of water, there is no borderland as there is between Germany and France, no meshing of cultures where our two peoples blend together. This is true even on the Channel Islands to a large extent.”

What a lot of err, mistakes…
The entire actual British new conservative mythological History in few sentences…
First, the seas (Baltic, North Sea, The Channel, Atlantic Ocean etc) around Europe were never fences but ways of trading and communication from the Greeks, Phoenicians, Viking, the Hanse and others traders and invaders.
You had more contact between Northern France and England (Holland, Denmark, Norway etc) during the Middle Ages than with Paris or Lyon thanks to the seas.
That is for the Geography.

As for history I suggest you to open books and to read them, especially the ones about Romans, Saxons, and Normans. Then you can carry on with the 100 Years war. The English were so far from Europe than their King felt he could claim the Throne of France (with some right if you believe the blood gave you right), claim abandoned only in 1802 (Treaty of Amiens)…
Then if England is sooooo far from Europe, why keeping Gibraltar?

As Culture, just check how much French words are in the English vocabulary?

And can you define “European Culture” for me please?
It would be useful what Culture in thrown upon you…

[Sarmatian]

An endless source of wonder.

If there is one upshot about the current wave of nationalist hysteria sweeping over Europe, it is that the quality of the internets goes up. No need to go through all the hassle of finding nationallistically inclined Poles or Balkanians. Western Europe will suffice.

Talk about irony, nationalism in the Balkans is quietly disappearing and in the western Europe is on the rise... Just call when you need peacekeepers...

I, for one, accept that Britain is not in Europe. They didn't trade with Europe, they weren't involved in any wars in Europe, they didn't have any contact with other European cultures, they're not a member of any European organization and they don't compete in European Football Championship.

[Tellos Athenaios]

they don't compete in European Football Championship.

This much is true: they've been no contender for a while now.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What a lot of err, mistakes…
The entire actual British new conservative mythological History in few sentences…
First, the seas (Baltic, North Sea, The Channel, Atlantic Ocean etc) around Europe were never fences but ways of trading and communication from the Greeks, Phoenicians, Viking, the Hanse and others traders and invaders.
You had more contact between Northern France and England (Holland, Denmark, Norway etc) during the Middle Ages than with Paris or Lyon thanks to the seas.
That is for the Geography.

The Sea may be a way of trading and communicating, but it is also a brarrier to the movement of people. The point is that the border between England and France is profoundly different from the border between France and Germany, and the key difference is the lack of "borderland".

As for history I suggest you to open books and to read them, especially the ones about Romans, Saxons, and Normans. Then you can carry on with the 100 Years war. The English were so far from Europe than their King felt he could claim the Throne of France (with some right if you believe the blood gave you right), claim abandoned only in 1802 (Treaty of Amiens)…

Well, the Romans left much less of a mark on Britain than anywhere else in the Western Empire, within a generation or two Latin culture had collapsed and the peasants still spoke the same language they had when the Romans first arrived. Compare this with their Gallic cousins, who all spoke vulgar Latin or a bastard form there of.The Saxons and the Normans are a different issue, but in the latter case English society became an aparteid, with an English Commons and a French ruling elite.

Why don't you try actually reading what I wrote, instead of insulting my education? I have not tried to claim that England or the UK is some for of cultural isolate, nor would I, but whatever this "European" thing is we do not wish to be included and you cannot force it upon us.

Then if England is sooooo far from Europe, why keeping Gibraltar?

Gibraltar is a Soverign State.

As Culture, just check how much French words are in the English vocabulary?

Check how many Latin words in French - oh wait, it's all Latin. See the difference?

And can you define “European Culture” for me please?
It would be useful what Culture in thrown upon you…

Actually I can't, which is another reason to object, ask Loius.

[Greyblades]

Gibraltar is a Soverign State.

Its also one heck of a strategic position, its the only entrance to the mediteranian for ships, save the suez canal, and a rather efficient choke point, he who owns gibraltar could filter almost all the shipping going in and out of the mediteranian.

[Kagemusha]

So let me get this straight.We have moved over from inevitable destruction of Euro as currency to debate whether British are Europeans?

[gaelic cowboy]

Its also one heck of a strategic position, its the only entrance to the mediteranian for ships, save the suez canal, and a rather efficient choke point, he who owns gibraltar could filter almost all the shipping going in and out of the mediteranian.

But only as long as he who holds Spain lets you keep Gibraltar, luckily for England the political situation has been calm enough to do so for a long while now.

[gaelic cowboy]

So let me get this straight.We have moved over from inevitable destruction of Euro as currency to debate whether British are Europeans?

Yeah I said this several times lately that this thread had moved away from its initial premise.

Default is coming unless some of the debt is restructured and the interest rates are pegged at much lower level. A sovereign default would be very bad for the Euro and the more this bailout continues in the form it has the more likely Ireland will default.

To the horror of european politicians our politicians are actually talking about redoing the deal top to bottom, of course they privately acknowledged that it must be changed, but apparently the currency is too weak to say so.

I expect some restructured debt before the year is out and a lower rate of interest on the loans, this will of course be a general restructure with greece, Ireland and by then the ECB will have kyboshed Portugal too in order to divest themselves of the Potugeese paper.

You do some or all of this and default can be made far less likely.

[Furunculus]

Hmm, let me try. You are born, are raised and spend your life in Europe. That pretty much makes you an European. Doesn't mean you have to feel a burning passion for Europe or even a vague sense of 'connectedness' with some arrogant French. Welsh and Scots and Irish are routinely labeled “British” even though they might privately think the UK is something that ought to be dissolved now. Doesn't change the fact they're actually every bit as British as the English Tory to the person sitting in Paris complaining about insolent rosbeefs spoiling his nice France each summer.

utterly and totally wrong in so far as you conflate a geographical identity with a political identity.

sure, i exist on the continent of europe there fore i am european.

but in no way do i accept that i am part of a european polity, if you wish to create a european polity then fill your boots, but outside of a few urban lib-dems the vast majority of britons will not be joining you, and a majority of them would actively reject the offer.

it is really that simple.

[Sarmatian]

utterly and totally wrong in so far as you conflate a geographical identity with a political identity.

sure, i exist on the continent of europe there fore i am european.

but in no way do i accept that i am part of a european polity, if you wish to create a european polity then fill your boots, but outside of a few urban lib-dems the vast majority of britons will not be joining you, and a majority of them would actively reject the offer.

it is really that simple.

So you are saying that you are European but not EUropean and you don't want to be EUropean. That's perfectly fine. The problem is that you and a few others maintain that you don't want to be EUropean because you aren't European. That's where the confusion comes from...

[Greyblades]

But only as long as he who holds Spain lets you keep Gibraltar, luckily for England the political situation has been calm enough to do so for a long while now.

True, but if the country being blockaded holds spain perventing naval access to and from the mediteranian becomes pointless.
Anyway we've gone off topic. The Euro is going down the tubes; discuss.