Euro Area

[Furunculus]

So you are saying that you are European but not EUropean and you don't want to be EUropean. That's perfectly fine. The problem is that you and a few others maintain that you don't want to be EUropean because you aren't European. That's where the confusion comes from...

my political identity is british, nothing else.

i consider myself part of the british polity, and consent to be governed by those elected from among my British peers because of knowledge that this governance will be conducted in a manner that is both predictable and acceptable to myself, as a result of a shared social and cultural history.

this would very much be a majority view in Britain, therefore it can be stated with some confidence that 'we' are not EUropean in the political sense, whilst respecting that we exist in geographic mass of europe, and thus have a history of constant interaction with our neighbours. the key point here is that they are "neighbours", and friendly ones at that, but not "family".

the belgians have a very poorly developed sense of nationhood arising from their history, and even in their desire for partition look to the EU to make up any deficit in security or governance. they therefore can be said to be EUropean in the political sense, in that they hold themselves to be part of a european polity.

it really is that simple. what is not to understand?

[Furunculus]

apparently for every $10 over $100 the price of oil climbs it will reduce economic growth, post recession, by 0.5% of GDP.

how is the ME crisis going to affect the vulnerable euro nations like greece?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...746957,00.html

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Torygraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...e-with-EU.html

Lovely quote:

A European diplomat, from a large eurozone country, told The Sunday Telegraph that "the more the Irish make a big deal about renegotiation in public, the more attitudes will harden".
"It is not even take it or leave it. It's done. Ireland's only role in this now is to implement the programme agreed with the EU, IMF and European Central Bank. Irish voters are not a party in this process, whatever they have been told," said the diplomat.

I'll say it again, if the EU does not enfranchise the peoples of member states and stop acting like the Roman Empire it will fracture, and the harder it tries to hold it all together the more likely the end will be bloody.

[Louis VI the Fat]

That article is from another fantasy world, where nothing is what it seems. I don't even know where to begin with pointing out all the fundamentally erroneous assumptions in there.


Let me suffice to say that I violently disagree with the Telegraph. It is not up to Europe to decide the political procedure in Ireland. Ireland must do this itself. Therefore the EU does not decide that any Irish government may or may represent the will of the Irish people, depending on the EU's mood. Rather, the Irish government is always assumed to act as an independent representive of the will of the Irish people. With this assumption agreements are made with Ireland.

This, and not a fantasy EUSSR/Mordor/Roman Empire/Whore of Babylon, is the reason why European governments can reach agreements with Irish governments and expect Ireland to be true to its word. It is what democracies do. Like responsible citizens, they can be relied upon that their word is worth more than the paper it is written on.


Which is not to say that I am convinced the Irish people have received a fair deal. But don't blame us. Europe merely lends Ireland money. The bank bailout was the work of the corrupt Irish politicians. The culmination of a near decade of mismanagement. They loved it when the value of their second homes kept going up and taxes were abolished for the rich and the foreign. Then the pyramid collapsed. Sadly, it is the poor who have to foot the bill, while those who profited get off scott free.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That article is from another fantasy world, where nothing is what it seems. I don't even know where to begin with pointing out all the fundamentally erroneous assumptions in there.


Let me suffice to say that I violently disagree with the Telegraph. It is not up to Europe to decide the political procedure in Ireland. Ireland must do this itself. Therefore the EU does not decide that any Irish government may or may represent the will of the Irish people, depending on the EU's mood. Rather, the Irish government is always assumed to act as an independent representive of the will of the Irish people. With this assumption agreements are made with Ireland.

This, and not a fantasy EUSSR/Mordor/Roman Empire/Whore of Babylon, is the reason why European governments can reach agreements with Irish governments and expect Ireland to be true to its word. It is what democracies do. Like responsible citizens, they can be relied upon that their word is worth more than the paper it is written on.


Which is not to say that I am convinced the Irish people have received a fair deal. But don't blame us. Europe merely lends Ireland money. The bank bailout was the work of the corrupt Irish politicians. The culmination of a near decade of mismanagement. They loved it when the value of their second homes kept going up and taxes were abolished for the rich and the foreign. Then the pyramid collapsed. Sadly, it is the poor who have to foot the bill, while those who profited get off scott free.

Take another look at what I quoted Loius. If a diplomat went on record with that it probably means he doesn't think it's very explosive, or important, but the tone is one of dismissal of the "Irish People". There are far more diplomatic ways of saying the deal is final, but he didn't bother.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Take another look at what I quoted Loius. If a diplomat went on record with that it probably means he doesn't think it's very explosive, or important, but the tone is one of dismissal of the "Irish People". There are far more diplomatic ways of saying the deal is final, but he didn't bother.

Well...

Firstly, does the 'anonymous diplomat' really exist? My money's on this, as per usual, not even being the case.
Secondly, if he exists at all, is he paraphrased? A diplomat is not in the business of feeding the British yellow press quotes to get outraged about. That is the business of reporters and editors. It is not all that difficult to quote somebody (somewhat) correctly while changing the tone and actual message on its head.

Why is the diplomat not named? Why is not even his country named? The 'diplomat from a large eurozone country' is merely stating obvious EU/British/IMF policy, so why the need of anonimity?


I don't think this diplomat even exists. Not that it matter much. The quote, if presented normally, is not harsh at all. The 'diplomat' merely states the obvious: democracies are true to their word. One government upholds the obligations of the previous ones. Whether dealing with corporations, natural persons, or governments, the principle is that agreements are upheld. This is the heart of high trust societies, of international cooperation, of internal rule of law.



One question in return: the UK is one of the largest foreign lenders of the Irish bailout. Does this mean that Britain is imposing a dictatorial rule on Ireland? Is the UK acting like the Roman Empire? Will there be blood?

[gaelic cowboy]

One government upholds the obligations of the previous ones. Whether dealing with corporations, natural persons, or governments, the principle is that agreements are upheld. This is the heart of high trust societies, of international cooperation, of internal rule of law.

We dont consider Fianna Fail to have being a government worthy of the name they should have called the election two yrs ago when the whole thing went bang they had no legitimacy to land us in the bailout.

Fine Gael will be rengoitaiting the Knockout I wont deign to call it a bailout, specifically the interest rate will have to come down.

[Louis VI the Fat]

We dont consider Fianna Fail to have being a government worthy of the name they should have called the election two yrs ago when the whole thing went bang they had no legitimacy to land us in the bailout.

Fine Gael will be rengoitaiting the Knockout I wont deign to call it a bailout, specifically the interest rate will have to come down.

It's not that the deal couldn't or shouldn't be renegotiated.

The working Irish got the *underground vertical passageway*. However, what ought to be renegotiated then is the Irish banking bailout itself, not the foreign loan to pay for this banking bailout. Sadly, this is an internal Irish affair.

If the banking bailout remains, but the EU-IMF bailout were to be renegotiated with more favourable conditions, then it is the European poor who have to pay for Ireland's rich, instead of the Irish poor. This should be out of the question. Europe has suffered enough financial damage from the irresponsible, corrupt Irish croonies. It is up to Ireland to clean ship internally, not up to Europe to keep footing the bill.


Ireland knows just how to get very favourable conditions instantly: sinmply end the scandalous Irish 'beggar thy neighbour' tax policy.

Google made twelve billion euro in Europe last year. If located in Germany or France, Google would have had to pay four billion in corporate taxes. However, Google is located in Ireland, where it pays only 28 million a year, on their entire European business.
That's four billion a year in tax handouts by the Irish government. There are more companies like this. It all puts the 86 billion in EU-IMF balout in perspective. Pocket change.

Ireland voluntarily chooses to have the Irish poor foot the bill for rich foreigners, rather than let rich foreigners pay for rich foreigners. The EU dearly wants to see that reversed, to have the culprits pay for their own mess, instead of passing on the buck to the Irish poor. What Europe will not do, is to bend over and take it up the rear just like what Dublin has done to poor Irishmen.

This is not about Irleand vs the EU. This is about who foots the bill for the bailout - the Irish taxpayer, or the European taxpayer, or those who received the profits. As we all know, it will frustratingly not be the third option - Ireland won't have it. It will not be the second option either - Europe won't have that. So the Irish poor it is and the Irish poor it will remain.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

One question in return: the UK is one of the largest foreign lenders of the Irish bailout. Does this mean that Britain is imposing a dictatorial rule on Ireland? Is the UK acting like the Roman Empire? Will there be blood?

Isn't Britain lending a large portion of that independantly at a lower rate, and isn't the rest money pledged by Alistair Darling after our own election?

Hmmmm, I think it is.

[Louis VI the Fat]

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: July 1, 2005

Dublin

There is a huge debate roiling in Europe today over which economic model to follow: the Franco-German shorter-workweek-six-weeks'-vacation-never-fire-anyone-but-high-unemployment social model or the less protected but more innovative, high-employment Anglo-Saxon model preferred by Britain, Ireland and Eastern Europe. It is obvious to me that the Irish-British model is the way of the future, and the only question is when Germany and France will face reality: either they become Ireland or they become museums. That is their real choice over the next few years - it's either the leprechaun way or the Louvre.


Germany and France are trying to protect their welfare capitalism with defense. Ireland is generating its own sustainable model of social capitalism by playing offense. I'll bet on the offense.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/01/op...dman.html?_r=1

[InsaneApache]

I'll give the Euro six months. Tops.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'll give the Euro six months. Tops.

It's monday already your weekend's recreational drugs should've worn off by now.

[InsaneApache]

It's monday already your weekend's recreational drugs should've worn off by now.

No, not yet. Been a long weekend.

ATHENS, Greece -- They blockade highway toll booths to give drivers free passage. They cover subway ticket machines with plastic bags so commuters can't pay. Even doctors are joining in, preventing patients from paying fees at state hospitals

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/...y_8319311.html

[Beskar]

my political identity is british, nothing else.

i consider myself part of the british polity, and consent to be governed by those elected from among my British peers because of knowledge that this governance will be conducted in a manner that is both predictable and acceptable to myself, as a result of a shared social and cultural history.

this would very much be a majority view in Britain, therefore it can be stated with some confidence that 'we' are not EUropean in the political sense, whilst respecting that we exist in geographic mass of europe, and thus have a history of constant interaction with our neighbours. the key point here is that they are "neighbours", and friendly ones at that, but not "family".

the belgians have a very poorly developed sense of nationhood arising from their history, and even in their desire for partition look to the EU to make up any deficit in security or governance. they therefore can be said to be EUropean in the political sense, in that they hold themselves to be part of a european polity.

it really is that simple. what is not to understand?

My political identity is a free citizen of Earth known as human. For taxation and birth purposes, I am classified as British.

I consider myself unrepresented, as the government does not reflect my needs or views, except on rare occasions where I praise them for doing so. The government is a compromise brought about people who hold the 'party' above shared values, and a party who own interests and the interests of their supporters are undertaken, at the cost of a greater shared interest.

I see a democratic European con/federation as being a stepping stone to a United Federation of Nations, which is a democracy global sovereignty spanning all continents to the four corners of the globe.