Euro Area

[Adrian II]

I was in Greece last year and already noticed the same about crime.

Twenty percent of Greeks live below the official poverty line. Don't know exactly what that line is in purchasing power terms, but it sounds ominous enough.

AII

[Louis VI the Fat]

Poverty itself does not create crime. Social injustice does. In this sense, the problem is not that twenty percent of Greeks lvie below the poverty line, but that twenty percent of Greeks are wealthy enough to not have to pay taxes, people who can afford to bribe their way to maintaining their social privileges.

As with Ireland, my main gripe is that Europe protects the wealthy at the expense of the poor. Why do French banks need to be protected at the expense of Europeans below the poverty line? I want a bailout program for the poor in Europe, not for the rich.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Poverty itself does not create crime. Social injustice does. In this sense, the problem is not that twenty percent of Greeks lvie below the poverty line, but that twenty percent of Greeks are wealthy enough to not have to pay taxes, people who can afford to bribe their way to maintaining their social privileges.

As with Ireland, my main gripe is that Europe protects the wealthy at the expense of the poor. Why do French banks need to be protected at the expense of Europeans below the poverty line? I want a bailout program for the poor in Europe, not for the rich.

I'm sure this is the result of the democratic deficit in Europe which the EU has done nothing to fix and, arguably, much to reinforce.

[gaelic cowboy]

I'm sure this is the result of the democratic deficit in Europe which the EU has done nothing to fix and, arguably, much to reinforce.

To be honest I doubt that PVC I get the feeling they would all still individually have tried to protect the banksters and whatnot

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

To be honest I doubt that PVC I get the feeling they would all still individually have tried to protect the banksters and whatnot

Probably true, but in this case they are all doing it because the Eurozone must pull together, otherwise one or two countries might have decided "non".

Anyway, it is a fact that the larger an organistion/nation the more divorced the people at the top are from those at the bottom.

[Kagemusha]

I think the dead weight have to be cut off from euro. Those who continuosly fail to live up to the standards of EMU, should be kicked off from Euro, meaning most of the Southern Europe and any tax heavens.Other wise, all this will be just a huge trans action of tax payers money to the private investors and that is not the idea of common currency this was supposed to be.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I think the dead weight have to be cut off from euro. Those who continuosly fail to live up to the standards of EMU, should be kicked off from Euro, meaning most of the Southern Europe and any tax heavens.Other wise, all this will be just a huge trans action of tax payers money to the private investors and that is not the idea of common currency this was supposed to be.

My solution would be to move boldly forward, and opt for political union. I do not think that is feasible though.

I really do think we are witnessing a tectonic shift on a global scale. Europe and North America, by and large Japan too, are set for another round of hurt. Meanwhile the rest of the world is going from strength to strength.



As for tax havens, these need to be bombed into regime change, period. Starting with the biggest of them all, the British Isles. I want our marines in London and Dublin by tomorrow.

[Kagemusha]

I think we in the West are about to hit the point, where global free capitalism and Keynesian mixed economical thinking cant seem to co exist for too long anymore. One of the two must go. World economy on the other hand cant be built up on debt which can not be paid, while the most profitable way of making money is speculating with huge capital funds. Thus leading to investments that have no real value, but only negative effect of pulling money out from the market. Our public macro economies have to be turned efficient enough, for them to actually be sustainable, while leeching the economy by using capital has to be stopped by regulating the financial market.

Otherwise i am afraid the financial system called capitalism is going to self destruct, first in the West and bit later in other parts in the world.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

My solution would be to move boldly forward, and opt for political union. I do not think that is feasible though.

I really do think we are witnessing a tectonic shift on a global scale. Europe and North America, by and large Japan too, are set for another round of hurt. Meanwhile the rest of the world is going from strength to strength.



As for tax havens, these need to be bombed into regime change, period. Starting with the biggest of them all, the British Isles. I want our marines in London and Dublin by tomorrow.

Having sane taxes is not immoral, French corporate taxes are lower than Irish ones with all your opt-outs and loopholes.

Anyway, China and India have piddly domestic sectors and political problems, if America and Europe go down then so do they!

[Furunculus]

looks like it is being delayed by the ECB acting as europes cash machine:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...some-time.html

[phonicsmonkey]

Anyway, China and India have piddly domestic sectors and political problems, if America and Europe go down then so do they!

Not true of China anymore where less than 50% of GDP is now comprised by exports and a far larger proportion of exports than ever before are now to other Asian countries and not to the US and Europe.

You could argue that if China (and indeed India) was going down it would have when the US and Eurozone economies contracted severely in 08/09. In fact it went from strength to strength on the back of strong domestic demand which shows no sign of abating.

And Louis..

As with Ireland, my main gripe is that Europe protects the wealthy at the expense of the poor. Why do French banks need to be protected at the expense of Europeans below the poverty line? I want a bailout program for the poor in Europe, not for the rich.

..while I agree with you this is not an issue isolated to Europe. Exactly the same dynamic is at play in the US and its latest manifestation is the fundamentalist Republican demand that fiscal balance be achieved solely by spending cuts and without new taxes. They won't even allow loop holes to be closed!

[Brenus]

“I want a bailout program for the poor in Europe, not for the rich.” Well, so we shouldn’t have voted for Lisbon Treaty… Oh, well, we didn’t but… well…

[Adrian II]

Poverty itself does not create crime. Social injustice does. In this sense, the problem is not that twenty percent of Greeks lvie below the poverty line, but that twenty percent of Greeks are wealthy enough to not have to pay taxes, people who can afford to bribe their way to maintaining their social privileges.

Injustice and privilege are rampant in Japan, yet crime is low.

Thesis refuted.

AII

[Louis VI the Fat]

Injustice and privilege are rampant in Japan, yet crime is low.

Thesis refuted.

AII

Bollox.

Temperature increases closer to the equator. This is not refuted by pointing out it is colder in Montréal than in Venice.


edit: *ignores Brenus*

[rory_20_uk]

I thought that Crime in Japan is very high, it is just institutionalised into the very fabric of society - and hence is rebranded privilege and nepotism.

After all, the easiest way of reducing crime is to make things not a crime anymore (in the UK we make the misdemeanours)

[Louis VI the Fat]

Not true of China anymore where less than 50% of GDP is now comprised by exports and a far larger proportion of exports than ever before are now to other Asian countries and not to the US and Europe.

You could argue that if China (and indeed India) was going down it would have when the US and Eurozone economies contracted severely in 08/09. In fact it went from strength to strength on the back of strong domestic demand which shows no sign of abating.

I too think it too optimistic that the world will forever revolve around ten percent of the global population which had a brief period of technological advantage.

China adds the entire GDP of Australia this year. Things are build in Asia that are far more advanced than anything Europe can even dream of, on a truly humongous scale at that. Internal trade between non-Western countries is exploding. Global economoy is about Brazilian resources processed by China to be used for construction in Turkey.


edit: *still blissfully ignores Brenus*

[Sarmatian]

I returned from a two week business trip to China yesterday and boy, was I amazed. Guangzhou makes western metropolis' look outdated - huge buildings, 10 lanes highways, modern technology... You can get anything there, from nails to spaceships, one or one million pieces. Shenzhen was a small village 30 years ago, today it has 9 million people living and working it it.

Petrol is 70-80 cents a liter, they've got all the resources they need from Russia and Brazil and, steadily more so, from Africa. Their internal market is huge. Crisis in the west won't make them implode, it may just be a temporary speed bump.

[Tellos Athenaios]

So Sarmatian, Louis, what you are marveling at is what Europe and Japan exported, then? Massive monetary investment and industrial expertise?

More advanced than what we can dream of in China often turns out to be designed by Western companies and engineers -- that is why China plays games with “rare earths” as they want the added value and technology using those rare earths to move from Japan, the USA and Europe to China.

[Brenus]

Can’t ignore me, I would be the voice of the conscience if you had one.

The facts are stubborn. Last year, the Good Doctor Strauss Khan (IMF) and his accomplices (ECB, EC) sold Greece to banskters. They made a private debt (Greece towards private banks) a public debt, and then they made the bankters rulers of Greece.
Thanks to the Europe that Protects and it Armed Arm the Lisbon Treaty (treaty only enforced on “free market”) states can’t borrow money to the ECB but on the market (meaning the banksters). These banksters borrow money to the ECB at around 0.5 % then lend to countries at around 15 or more % according to the notation (given by the banskters) to the countries in need.

Thanks to DSK and his henchmen, the Greek Debt increased. So soon enough, it will be bankruptcy. But the leeches have made their money, so who care…

[Sarmatian]

So Sarmatian, Louis, what you are marveling at is what Europe and Japan exported, then? Massive monetary investment and industrial expertise?

More advanced than what we can dream of in China often turns out to be designed by Western companies and engineers -- that is why China plays games with “rare earths” as they want the added value and technology using those rare earths to move from Japan, the USA and Europe to China.

Bah, 30 years ago Shenzhen looked like this


Now it looks like this


40 years ago bicycle was the main transportation means in China. Now they plan to have 20 million electric cars by 2025. Gone are the days when they needed western engineers, those 200-story buildings are designed by the Chinese and built by the Chinese.

[rory_20_uk]

Like a child in a chocolate factory, Greece apparently had no option but to borrow vast sums of money. Tax avoidance and monopolies abound, causing the economy to be sclerotic. To join the EU they asked bankers to help them hide debt so they could squeeze in.

When this problem first was noticed, first denial was used, followed by violence and strikes. People were firebombed for working in a bank.

The banks borrow money of the EU bank. The EU bank apparently wants them to do so. They are either aware of the arbitage that this causes or else would fail GCSE economics.

Greece will hopefully go bankrupt as they should have done years ago - before joining the EU when they would have devalued and caused a local problem that was caused by... the locals. After months of the EU giving heroin to a heroin addict / petrol to a fire the problem is vastly worse and threatening the whole Euro as teh debt is too large for Germany to absorb. I'm sure this too is the fault of bankers, as clearly politicians and the states involved are utterly blameless.

[Louis VI the Fat]

40 years ago bicycle was the main transportation means in China. Now they plan to have 20 million electric cars by 2025. Gone are the days when they needed western engineers, those 200-story buildings are designed by the Chinese and built by the Chinese.

I think you and I are seeing the same China.

Europeans have always marvelled at China. There are travel accounts from many centuries, all concluding more or less the same. That not Europe, but China is the centre of the world. More populous, more industrious, infinitely refined.

[Centurion1]

I think you and I are seeing the same China.

Europeans have always marvelled at China. There are travel accounts from many centuries, all concluding more or less the same. That not Europe, but China is the centre of the world. More populous, more industrious, infinitely refined.

I've been to China I have some distant family in China. All that you see is by and large produced by western builders and contractors. The Chinese are up and coming sure but their position on ladder which is the wealth of nations is tenuous at best. Not to mention the people will eventually rise against the authoritarian state which they hide from visiting westerners. Their west is derived from the west and still dependent upon it.

[Sarmatian]

I think you and I are seeing the same China.

Europeans have always marvelled at China. There are travel accounts from many centuries, all concluding more or less the same. That not Europe, but China is the centre of the world. More populous, more industrious, infinitely refined.

I believe we are. I've visited New York, Paris, London... but two weeks in Guangzhou have left a bigger impression than all those cities together. If I'm allowed to use some poetic license, I felt like I saw the future. They're gonna be number 1 pretty soon and the most amazing, or possibly the scariest fact is that you get the feeling they're not even trying, that they're still in gear one. And all that is created by 1.5 billion people bound together by 5000 years old culture. I'm going back in January for another business trip and in between I'm gonna start learning the language.

I've been to China I have some distant family in China. All that you see is by and large produced by western builders and contractors. The Chinese are up and coming sure but their position on ladder which is the wealth of nations is tenuous at best. Not to mention the people will eventually rise against the authoritarian state which they hide from visiting westerners. Their west is derived from the west and still dependent upon it.

Bollox. That is the story we tell ourselves to comfort us. China still has a long way to go, China is dependent on us, China is unstable, China is authoritarian police state... China indeed has a long way to go, but not to reach us, that's just around the corner, but to reach its full potential. That is possibly the most amazing or the scariest thing, like I've said. They're getting ahead of us and they're using maybe 10% of their potential. We're more dependent on China that China on us, it is a stable country with more than 90% of 1.5 billion people declaring themselves as Han people. For two weeks in a city with more than 12 million people, I haven't seen a single police officer except those directing the traffic, armed to the teeth with whistles and red and green flags.

[rory_20_uk]

In the UK we illegally arrest / kettle protestors, but that's OK as we have a reivew after a few years and declare it illegal.
The police force hires criminals, but that's OK as when they did the investigation they found no wrongdoing. If that's a problem take solace in that two people at the top resigned.
We are rapidly eroding our national identity, but that's OK as we are "multicultural" and are told we shouldn't want one.
Our care homes abuse staff and the watchdog does nothing. But that's OK as we have TV programmes to investigate too.
We have a Democracy, which means we have the ability to vote in the other lot who did PPE at Oxford for a few years.

Europe / America got to be great powers by being ruthless and outcompeting and often outgunning all competition. Now we appear to think that everyone should just be nice and accept that our way is the way to Enlightenment - even though historically we've only been thus after our peak.

Pretending that China will implode as they have a different model to us is apparently a lot easier than trying to sort anything out over here.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I felt like I saw the future

Yeah, except that you saw it in technology they bought from the West. The real future is that they are scrambling to set up their own state of the art R&D, witness Huawei - ZTE patent spats. That is the future: your iPhone not just made in China but also designed in China.

[gaelic cowboy]

Those who continuosly fail to live up to the standards of EMU, should be kicked off from Euro

There is your problem straight away, Ireland is bailed out but it had top marks every year cos the government never borrowed any money, instead our banks busted our exchequer causing knockout.

[InsaneApache]

That is the future: your iPhone not just made in China but also designed in China.

By an Englishman in California actually.

[gaelic cowboy]

By an Englishman in California actually.

That only works for a while though, the classic example is the television, America lost it's control of the market by outsourcing huge amounts of production to the far east mainly Japan.

When the outsourcing companies started to make there own cheaper televisions the Americans couldnt compete.

The American television industry had practically forgot how to actually make one.

[Beskar]

That only works for a while though, the classic example is the television, America lost it's control of the market by outsourcing huge amounts of production to the far east mainly Japan.

When the outsourcing companies started to make there own cheaper televisions the Americans couldnt compete.

The American television industry had practically forgot how to actually make one.

I remember this argument with Furunculus. He said I was wrong because we own the patents.