Euro Area

[Fragony]

Yeah, change the subject.

AII

I don't 'Eén munt zonder vergaande economische, fiscale en politieke integratie is geen houdbaar recept gebleken.'

for non Dutchies 'one coin without excessive economical, fiscal, and political integration, has turned out to be ineffective'

[gaelic cowboy]

Sarkozy, Merkel want eurozone government

The leaders of France and Germany have called for the formation of a common eurozone government after a meeting in Paris on the debt crisis.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy said the proposals would ask eurozone countries to put limits on their budget deficits in their constitutions by summer 2012.
The two leaders are also proposing a new collective economic 'government' for the eurozone consisting of heads of state or government that would meet at least twice a year.
They are proposing that this body would be led by the Herman Van Rompuy.
They also proposed a new tax on financial transactions.
Ms Merkel said eurobonds were not answer to the debt crisis 'today'.
Mr Sarkozy said France and Germany were at one on the issue, but he said eurobonds could be imagined, but only at the end of a process of euro zone integration.
Most European stock markets ended down this evening ahead as investors awaited the outcome of the meeting Mr Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel.
Shares were affected earlier by weak growth figures from Germany and the eurozone, but gained back some ground this afternoon after better than expected US industrial production figures.
London's FTSE edged up 0.1% to finish at 5,358. In Frankfurt, the main DAX index fell 0.5% to 5,995, while in Paris the CAC dropped 0.3% to 3,231.
Last week's decision by the European Central Bank to buy €22bn worth of bonds in heavily indebted nations has calmed markets, however it is seen by many as a temporary fix.

Debt limits dont fix the problem we have NOW what are these people at they decided they needed another meeting twice a year in which they will do as little then as now.

[Adrian II]

Sarkozy, Merkel want eurozone government

Oh yes, let us create more undemocratic mechanisms. Be my guest if you want rocks flying through windows in 24 capitals.

I still have a hope that European leaders, like their American counterparts, will do the right thing - after they have tried everything else.

But it is going to take decades to undo the damage that these knuckleheads have done in just two years time.

AII

[Vladimir]

Maybe you should establish a Department of Debt. It could be modeled on our Department of Jobs.

[gaelic cowboy]

Oh yes, let us create more undemocratic mechanisms. Be my guest if you want rocks flying through windows in 24 capitals.

I still have a hope that European leaders, like their American counterparts, will do the right thing - after they have tried everything else.

But it is going to take decades to undo the damage that these knuckleheads have done in just two years time.

AII

The problem as they see it is that governments made mistakes ergo we need a bigger government. (which we have no say in hiring or firing)

They better have some grand plan for avoiding a referendum in Ireland on this because I'm most certainly already in the NO camp.

[Adrian II]

They don't 'do' grand plans anymore, they do whatever 'the markets' tell them.

AII

[gaelic cowboy]

They don't 'do' grand plans anymore, they do whatever 'the markets' tell them.

AII

Then those market types will be mad as hell there are no Eurobonds.

All they did was basically set up another two summits to go to.

Oh and I nearly forgot debt ceilings never cause any crisis right hey wait a minute United States debt ceiling crisis

It will never pass here because they cant change the constitution without referendum and anyone who tries to get one passed will be soundly kicked out the gate.

So one of the key pieces of this agreement will be unworkable for Ireland, logically we will prob be out of the Euro within a few years.

not before the bailout ends naturally due to the ECB wanting there money back an all

[Fragony]

Does it help at least a tiny little bit if I understand why you are so angry

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh yes, let us create more undemocratic mechanisms. Be my guest if you want rocks flying through windows in 24 capitals.

I still have a hope that European leaders, like their American counterparts, will do the right thing - after they have tried everything else.

But it is going to take decades to undo the damage that these knuckleheads have done in just two years time.

AII

I must say, I am starting to have very French thoughts about some politicians

Can I just point out: UK Conservatives were widely derided for being anti-Euro and decoupling from the Cntre-Right-pro-Euro Bloc in the EU Parliament.

This Emperor never had any clothes, but despite lots of people saying so no one listened.

[gaelic cowboy]

I must say, I am starting to have very French thoughts about some politicians

Can I just point out: UK Conservatives were widely derided for being anti-Euro and decoupling from the Cntre-Right-pro-Euro Bloc in the EU Parliament.

This Emperor never had any clothes, but despite lots of people saying so no one listened.

I'm having very Irish thoughts on this basically Michael Collins 2.0 I cannot see people here letting this go lightly.

We have not had any disturbances here at all however this could be a very dangerous spark in my country.

The more I think on it the more I think it is a way to engineer a some kind of new FrancMark without the PIGS.(if it is that would actually solve it)

And to think I thought Jim Corr was mad

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm having very Irish thoughts on this basically Michael Collins 2.0 I cannot see people here letting this go lightly.

We have not had any disturbances here at all however this could be a very dangerous spark in my country.

The more I think on it the more I think it is a way to engineer a some kind of new FrancMark without the PIGS.(if it is that would actually solve it)

And to think I thought Jim Corr was mad

Ireland is particularly screwed here - other than Euro-integration her best option is good old Blighty, either one can go over very badly politically.

[gaelic cowboy]

Ireland is particularly screwed here - other than Euro-integration her best option is good old Blighty, either one can go over very badly politically.

Personally I have no problem pegging to sterling, we had that before anyway our economy is hyper-plugged into UK. Just cos we track sterling does not keep me up at night we still get to decide to peg a currency, I don't see any need to go back to the UK neither side wants it anyway.

My problem is purely emotional in reality I will not vote for this

It's pretty obvious we will have to be eased out of the euro in order to achieve this plan, after the ecb gets its money back as it always wanted.

They cannot pass a referendum here now not a hope in hell, no matter how much they badger or how much debt they hold we still have to vote.

Since the plan calls for constitutional debt limits I suspect it is a way to remove Ireland from the euro, and if by some miracle we vote yes they still have what they want.

Personally I want out of the Euro we can all truthfully say it is no good for Ireland and I suspect that is what they really want.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Meh. I agree with Louis that for the monetary union a much greater political integration is desirable or perhaps even necessary. However, I'd rather have such things decided through EP rather than two discredited/disappointing politico's with little hope of popular or other support. This is shot down before it even started, and as Adrian says it will take a lot of time to repair the damage these two just did, and have done for the past two years.

[Fragony]

Meh. I agree with Louis that for the fiscal union a much greater political integration is desirable or perhaps even necessary. However, I'd rather have such things decided through EP rather than two discredited/disappointing politico's with little hope of popular or other support. This is shot down before it even started, and as Adrian says it will take a lot of time to repair the damage these two just did, and have done for the past two years.

The damage that that bloated salsaboy and that Flemish ferret have done is pretty much beyond repair, economy is trust and trust means accountability and democracy. The EU will collapse and kthxbye.

[Furunculus]

Meh. I agree with Louis that for the monetary union a much greater political integration is desirable or perhaps even necessary.

fiscal and political union were always an inevitable necessity of a monetary union, there are no two ways about it, which is why we stayed out. who is going to tell the eurozone electorates that their nations are no longer states, and that the policy and spending regime they live under will now be directed towards the 'good' of the whole, and not their family and friends?

if consent is not sought, nor mandate achieved, then the eurozone has just ceased to be a representative democracy, remaining merely a 'democracy'.

remember those europhiles who rubbished the notion that monetary union would lead to political union.
"what fearful and small-minded chaps you are, to take fright at such will-o-wisps!" they scoffed.
who here was one of those?

However, I'd rather have such things decided through EP rather than two discredited/disappointing politico's with little hope of popular or other support.

at least they had some credibility to lose, the EP doesn't even have legitimacy owing to the lack of representation and accountability!

[Tellos Athenaios]

at least they had some credibility to lose, the EP doesn't even have legitimacy owing to the lack of representation and accountability!

That would be the same EP whose members were elected by their respective constituency with the explicit mandate of debating and deciding on the EU laws? As opposed to Sarkozy and Merkel whom might have authority in exactly 2 out of 27 such constituencies?

If your MEP is effectively appointed by your country go complain to Whitehall. Here, there are actual elections for what muppets we send to Brussels.

EDIT: If your point is simply that the EP is kind of invisible to the public eye then I guess so. One reason for that would be precisely such unilateral action on the part of various heads of state or their ministers. Since we're discussing the “right thing”, it's precisely the EP which we need to strengthen if we want accountability and democracy in the long term. Representatives of vaguely defined national interests is not “accountable” nor “democratic”, not when it comes to European-wide issues. Of course if you don't bother to vote when the elections are, that's your attitude to blame. You don't get excellence if you fail to pay attention.

[Adrian II]

I must say, I am starting to have very French thoughts about some politicians

Can I just point out: UK Conservatives were widely derided for being anti-Euro and decoupling from the Cntre-Right-pro-Euro Bloc in the EU Parliament.

This Emperor never had any clothes, but despite lots of people saying so no one listened.

I'm not anti-EU, just anti-euro-in-its-present-form. And I'm not anti-politics like IA either, I think that's a dead end.

Constitutionally guaranteed budget limits as per Merkel/Sarkozy require either elections or a referendum in each eurozone country, so yes, we're all going to have a vote about this.

AII

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm not anti-EU, just anti-euro-in-its-present-form. And I'm not anti-politics like IA either, I think that's a dead end.

Constitutionally guaranteed budget limits as per Merkel/Sarkozy require either elections or a referendum in each eurozone country, so yes, we're all going to have a vote about this.

AII

I'm not "anti" EU, but the institution is corrupt, and therefore I oppose its rule over me.

[Adrian II]

the institution is corrupt

So is your own government. Corruption is all the rage these days, it is not particular to the EU.

The EU and its powers were created by consent of the member states. Not one EU member state has sought to opt out of it yet. The EU has brought us peace and prosperity.

It has huge flaws, of course. These reflect the flaws in our own governing castes, nothing more, nothing less.

AII

[InsaneApache]

I'm not anti-EU, just anti-euro-in-its-present-form. And I'm not anti-politics like IA either, I think that's a dead end.

Constitutionally guaranteed budget limits as per Merkel/Sarkozy require either elections or a referendum in each eurozone country, so yes, we're all going to have a vote about this.

AII

I'm not anti-politics per se but I am anti this current generation of politicians. They know nothing. Like Manuel. They go up to Ox-Bridge and do a piss poor PPE and then go and get a job in whatever political party will have them. After all Ted Scrotum was a young consevative at uni.

Then they charge us for the priviledge of them passing another set of piss-poor, ill thought out laws that just don't match with reality in the real world. Parasitic scum. One or two exception I admit. In the main chiselers and skulking loafers in it for themselves.

[Adrian II]

I'm not anti-politics per se but I am anti this current generation of politicians. They know nothing. Like Manuel. They go up to Ox-Bridge and do a piss poor PPE and then go and get a job in whatever political party will have them. After all Ted Scrotum was a young consevative at uni.

Then they charge us for the priviledge of them passing another set of piss-poor, ill thought out laws that just don't match with reality in the real world. Parasitic scum. One or two exception I admit. In the main chiselers and skulking loafers in it for themselves.

Well, you are certainly on to something. We haven't seen the last episode of moral decay in the West yet, only it isn't just politicians who stink. And not just Manuel and his Brussels posse either.

Allow me to leave you with a rumination from today's Telegraph that illustrates our common concern:

As the US economist Paul Krugman observed this week, American and European leaders sometimes seem to be engaged in a contest to see who can make the worst of a bad situation. The recent suggestion by Rick Perry, the Republican presidential hopeful, that Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke should be roughed up and put on trial for treason, suggested that the US might still be in with a chance in this race to the bottom. Yet, despite the willingness of America’s political class to put naked self-interest before national economic wellbeing, they will always struggle to match Europe in the bad policy stakes.

AII

[Louis VI the Fat]

I still have a hope that European leaders, like their American counterparts, will do the right thing - after they have tried everything else.

But Sarkozy and Merkel ARE doing the right thing. They are opting for the bold move forward.

We are currently witnessing the long known problems that a common currency faces without common economic policy. The obvious way forward then is to have more common economic policy.

[Furunculus]

But Sarkozy and Merkel ARE doing the right thing. They are opting for the bold move forward.

We are currently witnessing the long known problems that a common currency faces without common economic policy. The obvious way forward then is to have more common economic policy.

doing the right thing would be either:
increasing the EFSF
or:
introducing eurobonds

what they achieved instead was an economic stable-door:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...e-concord.html
at the same time as:
turning eurozones periphery into satrapies of berlin