Euro Area

**Furunculus** · 08-17-2011, 13:34

the EP is not representative of any polity i recognise, and a grand majority of this country would agree.
the EP is not cared about by any kind of a majority, so its actions go unnoticed, which means it is effectively unaccountable to the electorate for its actions.

ergo; it has no legitimacy.

**Fragony** · 08-17-2011, 13:45

Originally Posted by Furunculus

the EP is not representative of any polity i recognise, and a grand majority of this country would agree.
the EP is not cared about by any kind of a majority, so its actions go unnoticed, which means it is effectively unaccountable to the electorate for its actions.

ergo; it has no legitimacy.

Indeed. None at all. Whatsoever.

**Kagemusha** · 08-17-2011, 14:12

I dont agree with either side concerning Euro. No we do not need further political integration for Euro to work and no we do not have the need to dissolve euro. What we need to do is something anyone pass their puberty should understand. Obey the rules of Euro or prepare to be kicked out.

While other EU countries are dumbing money to Greece with no guarantees.Our government made a nice deal on tuesday:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Fin.../1135268607718

Finland is guaranteeing atleast EUR 1.4 billion of Greek debt in exchance Greece is paying atleast half a billion to Finland as cash guarantees.Then Finland will invest that half a billion back to low-risk state bonds, so if Greece cant pay back their debt Finland will get its own money back, if they do.We make profit. I guess we are bit evil. :P

**Adrian II** · 08-17-2011, 14:15

Originally Posted by Kagemusha

I dont agree with either side concerning Euro. No we do not need further political integration for Euro to work and no we do not have the need to dissolve euro. What we need to do is something anyone pass their puberty should understand. Obey the rules of Euro or prepare to be kicked out.

While other EU countries are dumbing money to Greece with no guarantees.Our government made a nice deal on tuesday:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Fin.../1135268607718

Finland is guaranteeing atleast EUR 1.4 billion of Greek debt in exchance Greece is paying atleast half a billion to Finland as cash guarantees.Then Finland will invest that half a billion back to low-risk state bonds, so if Greece cant pay back their debt Finland will get its own money back, if they do.We make profit. I guess we are bit evil. :P

All countries lending money to Greece are making a profit. We sell Dutch bonds on the market at 2,5 % and use the money to buy Greek bonds at 9% or something in that order.

AII

**Kagemusha** · 08-17-2011, 14:19

Originally Posted by Adrian II

All countries lending money to Greece are making a profit. We sell Dutch bonds on the market at 2,5 % and use the money to buy Greek bonds at 9% or something in that order.

AII

Yes but we are the only ones getting direct cash from Greece.If the Greek bonds dive further.You will not be getting anything.Just read the article.

**gaelic cowboy** · 08-17-2011, 14:24

Originally Posted by Kagemusha

Yes but we are the only ones getting direct cash from Greece.If the Greek bonds dive further.You will not be getting anything.Just read the article.

But is this not a bilateral loan like the UK-Ireland so different terms apply, your still on the hook for all the bailout money you pledged to the various funds already.

**Kagemusha** · 08-17-2011, 14:34

Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

But is this not a bilateral loan like the UK-Ireland so different terms apply, your still on the hook for all the bailout money you pledged to the various funds already.

I am now only talking about the latest arrangement. Before the current situation the initial premise was that Greece would be able to pay their debts. In my opinion that is more or less money lost already.
While other Euro Nations are continuing with that hope.With this arrangement, Finland is securing that no matter if Greece can pay or not.We will not be dumbing any further money on them without direct guarantees.

**Adrian II** · 08-19-2011, 17:22

Originally Posted by Kagemusha

Yes but we are the only ones getting direct cash from Greece.If the Greek bonds dive further.You will not be getting anything.Just read the article.

The Dutch PM and Finance Minister deny that there is such a Finnish-Greek deal. Well, is it official or not?

According to The Hague any such deal would (1) apply to all EU eurozone members lending money to Greece and (2) require approval from the other eurozone members.

So, what's up Helsinki-side?

AII

**Tellos Athenaios** · 08-19-2011, 17:30

I take the words of the Dutch PM and Finance clowns with a grain of salt. Especially when they contradict a deal they had nothing to do with, when they actually contradict the people who supposedly did sign off on it.

**Kagemusha** · 08-20-2011, 03:36

Originally Posted by Adrian II

The Dutch PM and Finance Minister deny that there is such a Finnish-Greek deal. Well, is it official or not?

According to The Hague any such deal would (1) apply to all EU eurozone members lending money to Greece and (2) require approval from the other eurozone members.

So, what's up Helsinki-side?

AII

It is telling that Euro media is not even putting it out,our financial minister Jutta Urpilainen put it out on tuesday like i di..The question is why is this not in bbc or deutchewelle, nor le monde

**Tellos Athenaios** · 08-17-2011, 13:56

Originally Posted by Furunculus

the EP is not representative of any polity i recognise, and a grand majority of this country would agree.
the EP is not cared about by any kind of a majority, so its actions go unnoticed, which means it is effectively unaccountable to the electorate for its actions.

ergo; it has no legitimacy.

Which is the problem to solve, rather than reason to discount it because you can't be bothered to read what you elect someone for. In other words: either you don't want the hassle of democracy and accountability on the part of the EP to the British public (among others) and would to leave (all) such decision making powers in the hands of your MP; or you want genuine democracy and accountability in which case the problem of “cannot be bothered to care” is quite frankly the real problem, and your complaints about lack of accountability or democracy really not their fault but your own of your own making.

For a flawed comparison: if all of the London rioters couldn't be bothered to care about property or people put in danger by their actions, that doesn't mean that the rest of the British public should accommodate this behaviour. The London rioters will be forced to pay the price for their irresponsibility, the same way yours already costs you when the German and French heads of state can effectively dictate the EU because for so long nobody could be bothered.

**Furunculus** · 08-17-2011, 14:15

Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

the problem of “cannot be bothered to care” is quite frankly the real problem, and your complaints about lack of accountability or democracy really not their fault but your own of your own making.

for sure.

but when i am joined by the vast majority of my countrymen in the toxic mixture of apathy and contempt it is no longer my problem, it is the EU's problem.

because people don't consider the EU representative, and thus do not consent for it to govern in my name, people are not interested in its dealings.
because people are uninterested in the EU's dealing those dealings pass by with scrutiny, and thus it remains unaccountable.

i have a government that i recognise as both representative and accountable, it sits in westminster, what use do i have for a federal government in brussels?

end of.